+MA on a bull?

[s031720]

Well a 3/5 policy should scare you even more then.

[Decker_cky]

It's not even 75%. You try to get the ball to the bull when he's in a position where the ball isn't immediately threatened. If there's pressure, let a hobgoblin pick it up, but skilling hobgoblins isn't really that useful if you want a lean team. I score with bulls early, and do so to win. To me there's no real tradeoff there. It's harder to pick up the ball, but easier to get it down field.

[s031720]

Decker:

Not sure what way you are arguing.

I think the discussion goes along these lines:

Me: Ah, you use the bulls as ballhandlers, that cant be easy.
Matt: 75% with gob pickuphandoff bull
Me: Na about 60 % doing that, but 75% with bull picking up the ball by himself.
Matt: Well I dont like a policy with a 3/4 successrate.
Me: Then you shouldnt like one with 3/5 successrate.

You: Im not sure where you fit in, cause im not sure what your saying.

[Decker_cky]

Me: 75% success rate is plenty good if you think about when to depend on it. Doing so makes the overall touchdown a higher percentage play.

Also...remember that the best case is an 8/9 play, so it's not easy even with a hobgob.

[mattgslater]

I never argued that one should hand off to the Bull, unless it's the only way to score before time runs out.

Matt (correctly interpreted): AG2 shouldn't handle the ball unless...
a) AG2 player is within 3 SPP of an improvement roll, preferably in an already-decided game;
b) AG2 player is only plausible ball-getter under circumstances;
c) AG2 player is only player in scoring range;
d) Ball scatters to AG2 player and he successfully catches it;
e) AG2 player intercepts ball.

On Turn 7 (exactly turn 7), I stop being opposed to giving the ball to a BC from the backfield. But this is only because you're going to be rolling dice anyway, be it GFI or handoff or pass or whatever, and if a 4+ instead of a 3+ spares you two GFIs, it's a decent trade. And that's only on defense, or if the BC is close to improving, or in a Blizzard, or if the oppo successfully shuts down all the Hobgoblin targets.

[s031720]

Yes, I think that:

IF:
Youd rather skill up your Bulls then optimize your chances of a win:

Picking up the ball with the bull > Picking up the ball with hob, hand off bull.


This is true statistically. It may not be true overall because it will effect your playstyle.

Pros:
You will pick up the ball when recieving. Thats a safe environment.
You will pick up the ball with the quickest player in your team. That will ensure the ball moving up to the cage more easily.
You will pick up the ball with a ST 4 wich will be very helpful.

Cons:
You will probably not be using the bull as much with blocking.


Moreover, If SPP is your highest priority you will be wanting to score as quickly as possible, so to get a chance of breaking his drive, or having a shot at another drive if he too scores quickly.

[s031720]

Aha, Im sorry I misinterpreted you. That was not my intention.

I agree with your reasoning.

[mattgslater]

Me: 75% success rate is plenty good if you think about when to depend on it. Doing so makes the overall touchdown a higher percentage play.

Also...remember that the best case is an 8/9 play, so it's not easy even with a hobgob.

3/4 is more than twice as likely to fail as 8/9. 8/9, you grit your teeth and do it, while 3/4 makes you look around and figure out if there's a better way. Yeah, the BC comes with a free assist, and he's comparable in terms of durability-for-price, which is rare at 130k, but really... if 25% of your PU attempts end your turn you're going to spend a lot of time on offense. Besides, I'd rather have the ST4 lead-blocker than the ST4 ball-carrier, especially when S access is taken to account.

[Decker_cky]

Almost 100% of the pick up attempts end my turn with CD. You plan everything so you're safe whether you succeed or fail. Depending on positioning, I might not even use a reroll on a fail. And why does strength access matter on a developing bull centaur? They're getting block and break tackle first barring stats or doubles, so it's only at 31 spp you can even really consider different skills.

But no need to grit your teeth on a bull centaur pick up...that only leads to failure. Just think positive thoughts.

[stashman]

If you take +MA you will probably take Break Tackle next, just to get the chance to use MA7 properly and you will need 31 spps to get block or wrestle...

[s031720]

Gosh!

I never thought it would happen, but this thread is really starting to make me want to play Chaos Dwarves again.

[Smeborg]

I would normally take the +1MA, unless you are playing in a short league.

BCs badly need Break Tackle, as has been said.

I use at least one Bull as a ball carrier, with the normal (non-doubles) skill progression being Break Tackle, Sure Hands. After that you have choices, but a possiblility is Kick-off Return, Juggernaut, Grab, Pro (this guy can punch through most defenses and dodge away on a 2+). Another possibility is to blend ball carrier development with Blitzer skills (say Break Tackle, Sure Hands, Juggernaut, Strip Ball).

The underlying motive to develop a BC in this way is to improve the CDs' offense (which is weak relative to their defense). A BC ball carrier is hard to sack (ST4 + Sure Hands) and can get himself out of trouble more often than not. If he is knocked over while carrying the ball, he is likely to stay on the pitch (unlike a Hobgob) and to be able to fight back in his next turn (6 squares of movement from prone + Break Tackle).

I don't take Block on BCs nowadays, as I regard it as a weak skill for ball carriers (it does not protect against Wrestle).

On a doubles roll, I take Dodge, but only if the BC has Break Tackle already.

One reason to take the +1MA is because your BC becomes a much more credible one-turn-score threat.

Another reason is that your BC might get a second +1MA. Imagine that... Or indeed any stat increase (ST, AG) would be enhanced by the +1MA.

But all wasted in a short league (in which case you would need the Break Tackle right away).

Hope this helps.