Managing Team Value 101

[quozl]

Hi guys,

I've only been playing BB about 2 months, but I already have a Vamp team, a Wood-Elf team, a Necromantic team, and a CD team on the way.

After coming from wargaming, the small BB team sizes are fantastic!

I understand the basic principle of minimising the Team Value to effectiveness ratio, but can anybody give a bit of a primer? Stuff that is probably obvious to more experienced players.

What I try to do is think about how much a skillup, or extra model costs, and try to figure out if i'm better off with that, or better off without my opponent getting that much extra inducements.

It's hard to say, ESPECIALLY with my vamps.

As I see it, the vamps need:
5 or 6 re-rolls.
A moderately deep bench because even if your opponents don't get your guys off, you'll get your own guys off quickly enough.
To pay lots of TV in getting the most basic skills - no starting block, dodge, tackle, anything really.

Also 2 basic skills cost as much as an extra thrall!

I can see how one would keep a low TV with Dwarves - who needs a bench with av9+guard/block, and they don't need many re-rolls.

Here's my current ladder vamp team:
http://www.bloodbowl-ireland.org/team/id/3

There are 2 dubious calls - keeping ST4 on a thrall, it costs more than a whole extra thrall, but it has been useful.

And turning a vamp into a dedicated passer with pass/accurate. This is Rules Review 2008, so I've enjoyed having a reliable passer.

Should i keep getting my thralls skills? keeping in mind that every two skills costs as much as a thrall?

I also really want to buy a 4th vamp, because vamps are the most fun part of the team for me. But that's another 110K, plus block/guard/SS makes it 170K!

Then I'd want an 11th thrall, and suddenly my TV would be 180! I'd be giving away 500K of inducements a game. Zara the slayer would be my permenant friend

I know vamps are meant to be tier 2, but will the team get relatively worse as it skills up and gives up more and more inducements?

I do have a 5 wins, 3 loses, 1 draw record with them, and I love them, but any pointers on managing spiralling TV?

the woodies kind of manage themselves tbh. I'm 7 wins, 1 loss with them, they're just broken good.

[Grumbledook]

tv of 18 0 isn't that high

how come you would be giving away 500k of inducements?

I think the whole part of TV management is more down to the league you are in than a set number

for me it is assessing if a player/reroll etc on your team is worth the inducements you are giving away compared to helping you win

if it isn't consider getting rid of it

looking at your team I think its pretty much ok

though if you are worried about TV I wouldn't be taking doubles skills on vampires

they don't need it, normal skills cost less and you can pick nearly any of them

pass you can use a reroll instead (though I wouldn't bother passing anyway) with st4 ag4 and hypnotic gaze you can run the ball nicely

make holes run a lot of thralls through and bobs your uncle

you also took sidestep as the first skill on another vampire, block is your friend, you don't start with any, makes you harder to knock down and gets you more knock downs

I'd have loved if my thralls with skills stayed alive longer than they did

but otherwise without knowing how your league works and why you should be giving away such massive inducements, it is hard to assess

though from the sounds of it if you are giving away that many you are going to be playing very weak teams which you should be beating anyway

[Ullis]

I'm really not the best person to give definitive answers as I've rarely played with any one team for very long, or at least long enough to really start bloating in TV.

The thing about TV costs is that the increases are constant, so there is obviously maximizing potential there. Normal skills cost the same TV-wise, but the benefits vary a lot. Same especially for doubles and stat increases, especially +ST and +AG.

I think the easiest skill increase is rolling +AG or normal skill. +AG is 40k and it's really easy to think of examples where the benefits would be almost negligible, with a Saurus being a good example. AG2 is still quite bad for ball handling and for dodging purposes Sauri get Break Tackle. Additionally, Sauri don't have any skills, have a hard time getting SPP's generally but G and S access, so the opportunity cost (=the cost of not taking something else) of taking +AG is pretty high too.

This reminds me of the maxim: Take any stat increase, barring av, if it gives you a higher stat than anyone on the team already has. That makes sense because it always adds a lot of potential to any team.

[quozl]

tv of 18 0 isn't that high

how come you would be giving away 500k of inducements?

It's a ladder with Chess style ratings, so differing amounts of games played per team. My vamps has the most games, and the highest TV.
I'm including the fact that I'll likely buy a 4th vamp before my next game, I have the money, and the vamps are the fun bit for me. I feel I shouldn't buy him, but there's a trade off between fun and common sense All vamp coaches must know it well.

looking at your team I think its pretty much ok

though if you are worried about TV I wouldn't be taking doubles skills on vampires

Thanks. True about the dbl skills, but I really wanted to add a reliable passing threat. I think it's worth the extra 20k for pass and accurate.
I amn't sure about that though

pass you can use a reroll instead

Rather not as my catchers are ag3, so I need the re-roll there.

you also took sidestep as the first skill on another vampire, block is your friend, you don't start with any, makes you harder to knock down and gets you more knock downs

Totally agree, both my first two vamps took block. I took SideStep on the 1st vamp after he got blodge.

though from the sounds of it if you are giving away that many you are going to be playing very weak teams which you should be beating anyway

Good to hear ) I wasn't sure the higher TV was worth it, but sounds like you think it is. Thanks.

[mattgslater]

Generally speaking, the overdog has an advantage, which is the way it's supposed to be. TV adds from purchases are the best TV value there is; those from skills and well-selected stats follow, with inducements being inferior to either as a rule.

Managing TV is how low-armor teams take care of replacements without getting dinged by spiraling expenses, or for when you know your next oppo's exact TV and don't want to give up a particular inducement. Otherwise don't worry too much.

[Andromidius]

Unless your opponant has a love for Chainsaws. But since they are usually cheap, that's a constant threat anyway.

~Andromidius

[quozl]

Unless your opponant has a love for Chainsaws. But since they are usually cheap, that's a constant threat anyway.

~Andromidius

Chainsaws and Zara The Slayer. I guess the worst that happens is they solve my spiralling TV for me

Sounds like it's not a big issue anyway, thanks guys. I went and bought the 4th vamp, they're too cool to resist.

[Joemanji]

Generally speaking, the overdog has an advantage, which is the way it's supposed to be.

Yep, high TV is nothing to be afraid of. Generally speaking given two coaches of similar ability, the overdog should have the better chance of winning. I had an Orc team with a TV well over 300, and never found Inducements to be an issue.

[AK_Dave]

The worst part about spiraling TV, for me, was the incessant whining from the other club members who are (still are) jealous of my Dark Elves. Well, be jealous. When you put the effort into getting twice as many games on your team as the next guy you deserve to have a better developed team and you deserve to be the 400,000 overdog with 12FF to your 6 and a 37% of getting FAME+2.

[Jural]

Big problem is chainsaws and other inducements which are designed to hurt the team. Orcs, dwarves, etc can survive (And indeed, laugh at) these threats.

Low AV teams are better off facing very few of them, so keep the TV compact. But for Vamps, this can be hard if your thralls aren't dying off in droves. Chainsaws are awful against Vamps, it negates their awesome profile and all their protective skills... and you don't have any high AV players to hide behind!

[mattgslater]

Saws are cheap, as a rule. In many cases, you can't reasonably game to stop your opponent from taking one. Higher-TV bash teams are even worse. Can't run, can't hide. Just go in there with your head high, take it on the chin, and win anyway.

[Jural]

The problem is not saws only, it's saws+.

A saw alone is often a very poor inducement, it only plays one drive, etc. it can be targeted, etc.

But when the saw is paired with a high strength star a wizard, and maybe a bribe, the total effect is that you can't take the saw out easily without getting into tactical problems. So it's value is multiplied.

High TV bash teams can be a problem, but they need to go through your block, wrestle, dodge, fend, or side step just like everyone else. And if they load up on block, tackle, grab, and juggernaut, that's less frenzy, mighty blow, claw, and guard!

So I agree, high TV bash teams are worse to go up against. But the chainsaw on a severe underdog is worth fearing.

That's why with Dark Elves I suggest being at the bottom of your league in TV or the top. You don't want to have to team build for both scenarios!

[SillySod]

Thats a pretty nice looking team with a decent win rate, well done

It looks like you've got the right idea about how to use and develope the team so I'll just give a few pointers on how you might want to do from there:
- get a 16th thrall, vampires work well with a full roster (and its pretty cheap) so unless you're getting inducement money to hire stars with you might as well have the full 16.
- frenzy is fantastic but did you really take it before block and dodge?
- get wrestle on thralls (I think).
- get some tackle into the team, wrestle covers this a bit but you probably need one or two vampires with tackle.

If you want to be really brutal in maximising TV efficiency:
- fire any injured players as soon as you can afford to replace them
- ignore any +stat other than +AG on thralls (and dont have more than one, even then I'd think carefully because one of your vampires is kitted out to deal with the ball offensively)
- fire any thralls that reach two skills as soon as you can afford to replace them (apart from your kicker, he's allowed another skill)
- get a leader (and drop a re-roll if you're feeling brave)
- other doubles go on guard, guards and leaders are both allowed a 2nd skill, just like the kicker

Of course having a high TV isnt as bad as all that so several of those steps are probably too ruthless Thats where I'd look at trimming the team though, if you really feel it needs to lose some TV.

BTW you shouldnt have to worry too much about chainsaws, most teams struggle to keep a ball safe from vampires let alone a chainsaw... just hypnogaze your way in and push him onto his own saw. Actually thats a point, you are using at least one hypnogaze a turn right?

PS do you find fend worthwhile or not? Personally I'm waiting until I use a human team in a league to try it out but I'm wondering how well it works on vampires.

[quozl]

- frenzy is fantastic but did you really take it before block and dodge?

I know, I know. I just really wanted one for the fun of it I knew it was wrong, but it felt so good ) She's got block now, thankfully, and she's been so much fun!

Basically it was a fun over effectiveness call, as I knew I could get her block pretty quickly. Vamps skill up so fast when you want them to.

- get wrestle on thralls (I think).
- get some tackle into the team, wrestle covers this a bit but you probably need one or two vampires with tackle.

Definitely on the to-do list, SillySod, thanks. I have one wrestler and she's been great. Tackle is going to go on the frenzier next, after block. With block/tackle and frenzy I figure she even has a good chance of getting the ball from a wardancer if she needs to.

I also want one wrestle/strip-ball thrall. Though that frenzy/block/tackle vamp will do a similar job

- fire any thralls that reach two skills as soon as you can afford to replace them (apart from your kicker, he's allowed another skill)

D'oh, really? I was chuffed at getting one to survive to 2 skills I even apothed her today - it's easier to get a 31spp vamp than a 16spp thrall!
Now that I think about it, you're probably right. The 2nd skill may not be worth 1/3rd of a 1-skill thrall.

BTW you shouldnt have to worry too much about chainsaws, most teams struggle to keep a ball safe from vampires let alone a chainsaw... just hypnogaze your way in and push him onto his own saw. Actually thats a point, you are using at least one hypnogaze a turn right?

Yep, 1 most turns, and 3 some times. It's a fantastic skill - totally slices defences apart and lets you do the most ridiculous things. The only down side is having to activate a vamp! Plus it's nice when your opponent is really pressured and can't afford to activate the hypnogazed guy first because order of activation is important or he can't risk a turn-over with it.

I faced another chainsaw today, it wasn't so bad. He chainsawed my S4 thrall but rolled a 4 for armour So blocked down, stunned, and then fed a thrall. Who knocked him out when he stood back up.

PS do you find fend worthwhile or not? Personally I'm waiting until I use a human team in a league to try it out but I'm wondering how well it works on vampires.

I only have the one fender, but I like it so far. Leaves her free to blitz (she used to be my main blitzer with her block skill and no blood-lust), and people keep forgetting about it and not being able to follow up can cause problems. I guess when I get more fenders they'll be less likely to forget

Thanks for the ideas, SillySod, the reason our ideas are so similar is probably to a fair extent because I read a tonne of your, and grumbledook, fen and a few other lads thoughts on the vamps here when I started.

Vamps rule!

[SillySod]

- fire any thralls that reach two skills as soon as you can afford to replace them (apart from your kicker, he's allowed another skill)

D'oh, really? I was chuffed at getting one to survive to 2 skills I even apothed her today - it's easier to get a 31spp vamp than a 16spp thrall!
Now that I think about it, you're probably right. The 2nd skill may not be worth 1/3rd of a 1-skill thrall.

I wouldnt worry about it too much, two skill thralls are quite fun and the thrall has probably earnt a place in your heart by the time they reach two or three skills

Glad you're having fun with them