Is it better to Kick than to Receive?

Gimli · Post by **Gimli** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 10:53 pm

I've been playing BB for a little over a year. The conventional wisdom in my League is that if you have a choice, you always choose to receive the ball off the kickoff. However, looking over the stats from the last 10 game season, roughly 3 in 4 of the TDs I scored (9 of 13) were defensive TDs, and roughly 3 in 4 of the TDs scored on me (8 of 11) were defensive TDs. To top it off, I just played an exhibition game with one of our League's most experienced coaches (Dwarves vs Orcs) and all 3 TDs were defensive.

This would suggest it is better to Kick than Receive the ball. In fact, if I had the courage of my convictions the first thing I should do when I get the ball would be to run it up to the LOS and then throw into my opponent's backfield!

I play Dwarves, and the rest of the League is a mixture of Bash and Finesse (Vampire, Chaos (x2), High Elf, Necro (x2), Orc (x2), Skaven, WE and Human). Of the 3 offensive TDs scored on me, all were by Finesse teams doing 2 turn TDs.

Are these stats anomolies, or should I be choosing to Receive when I get the choice at the start of the game? What is the conventional wisdom elsewhere? And seriously, when I do receive the ball on a kick off am I better to throw it back and chase it down than cage up and grind?

(I realize there is an issue here with the number of defensive TDs being scored on me. I'm obviously doing a pi**-poor job of caging up and protecting the ball, but I will explore that in a separate thread.)

Smeborg · Post by **Smeborg** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:47 pm

Interesting stats. By keeping these stats and analysing them, you will improve your game a lot. First question: Which teams are turning you over, the bash teams or the agility teams?

The only significant reason to choose to receive the ball on kick-off (as far as I am aware) relates to player numbers. By being the first player to block (minimum of 4 targets on the first turn) you aim to reduce the number of opposing players on the pitch (with CAS and KOs).

The game purpose of these CAS and KOs is twofold:

(a) Some teams have a relatively poor offense, which can only function properly by reducing the number of opposing players on the pitch.

(b) If the plan goes well, by the second half (or at least by the last drive of the game) you may reduce your opoonent to less than 11 fit players, giving you a significant advantage.

So, my second question to you would be: Are you putting enough opposing players in the dugout? This is the way Dwarfs like to play the game.

Third question: Do you have the ability to score quickly? Sometimes you have to do this, even when your instinct wants to play a long grinding drive. Holding the ball is hard nowadays, especially against agile players with Wrestle. Looks like you can trust your defense.

Some match-ups (race vs. race or coach vs. coach) seem to produce more TDs by the defense than by the offense. I once lost a tournament knock-out match when my opponent chose to kick the ball in extra time. His reasoning (revealed after the game) was that all the TDs in the game up to that point had been by the defense (2-2 I think). He was a brave man, but his reasoning was good.

I do not have his bravery and always choose to receive.

Hope this helps.

Craigtw · Post by **Craigtw** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:24 am

Sometimes it can be to your advantage to kick to your opponent first, but it really depends a lot on what kind of team you are playing, and what kind of team your opponent is playing.

Generally yu are going to want to kick to the other team when they are a fast enough and agile enough team that they are going to try to score quickly, and in the early part of the game there is going to be vewry little you can do about it (epecially true of elf teams and skaven).

To illustrate let's look at a classic example - orcs vs skaven. The orcs win the kick off and elect to kick to the skaven.

Despite their best efforts the gutter runner slip through and on turn two it is 1-0 skaven.

The skaven then kick to the orcs who carefully cage the ball and move steadily down the field, killing the clock and scoring on ther very last turn of the half.

The skaven then have to kick the ball to the orcs again who repeat the tactic the same as before, caging the ball and moving slowly towards the endzone, killing rats all long the way to score on their final turn.

Final score 2-1 orcs.

Not the most exciting game, but it is a win!

Gimli · Post by **Gimli** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:27 am

Q1: Which teams are turning me over?
A1: Vampire (1), Orc (2), Chaos (2), WE (2) and Human (1) - no pattern, 4 Bash, 4 Finesse.

Q2: Am I putting other players in the Dugout?
A2: You bet, but haven't looked at closely. I have a hunch there is a very strong correlation between CAS totals and game results (e.g., only 1 CAS on WE - with 5 MB players hitting all AV7 no less - and 2-1 loss - all TD defensive).

Q3: Can I score quick?
A3: Well, I play Dwarves. I rarely score with the cage up and grind downfield. Usually if I cage up, the ball is taken away by turn 4 or 5 and opponent gets defensive TD on Turn 8. When I do score offensive TDs it's usually because I play a loose cage, break a hole and then send in a fast Runner (MA7) with the ball.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:30 am

been at least one thread on this already if you do a search

Gimli · Post by **Gimli** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:36 am

Grumbledook wrote:been at least one thread on this already if you do a search

Tried several times. Any suggestions on where to find the thread gratefully received.

SillySod · Post by **SillySod** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:10 am

Personally I think you should choose to kick nearly all the time. However, I dont think thats anything to do with defensive touchdowns being inherrently easier. Among other things I think its gives you a stronger control over the game especially in the sense that you often get to choose whether to draw the game or play for the win.

Secret weapons play a massive part in deciding whether to kick or recieve, some of the only times I ever choose to recieve are when I have offensive secret weapons like a chainsaw (the other times are when I have norse... norse are suprisingly similar to chainsaws). Apart from secret weapons I think that the key reason to kick is so you have control of the KO box. Instead of producing a load of waffle I've been lazy and just quoted old waffle...

SillySod wrote:If you're recieving and score then there will be at least two sets of KO rolls by half time, theres nothing you can do about that. However...

If you're kicking there might be three vague scenarios:
1 - things go really wrong for you and your opponent scores but you dont.
2 - things go well for you and you concede but score one yourself
3 - things go absolutely to plan and you score late in their half

In scenario 1 you are more likely to have been beaten up, you are garunteed to get 2 KO rolls here which is just what you need after being beaten up.
In scenarios 2 and 3 you are probably winning the bashfest in which case you score in your turn 8 meaning that theres only one KO roll. Notice though that if you want 2 KO rolls you can score a turn earlier - hence you have control of the KO box in a way that you never could when recieving.

Generally when you are kicking the KOs will go your way, even when you are not in control of the game. Of course this advantage dosent apply to the second half because it dosent matter if the KOs come back after that

It depends on the matchup but I find that KO box control is usually more influential on the player count than going first.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:08 am

This is two different questions:

1) Which is easier, defense or offense?

2) Which is better when winning the coin-toss: to kick in the first half, or to receive in the first half.

Here are my stabs at answers:

1) Defense is more important than offense, as good teams spend more time on defense. This pads defensive TD stats, and skews your numbers: to what extent I don't know and don't think I'd be able to find out with a single league/single season. I find defense easier (and quicker) than offense with bash teams, and I think offense is easier than defense with speed, but the difference isn't huge and there are more skills to help a speed team with defense than with offense (SS, DT, Kick). Conversely, while bash teams have skills to bolster their offense in particular (Grab, KoR), those skills tend primarily to be #2 or #3 selections taken by successful or long-running teams, which usually get there by dint of defensive scoring. Note also that a bash team that can score a defensive TD may do so quickly (either as a result of pressure or as a display of confidence), while the same team on offense might go for an 8-turn grind to prevent an answer.

2) Most people say it's better to kick in the first half. I'd say the major exceptions are if a) you're f**ked and you know it and you just want to get in a few SPPs before you collapse, or b) if you think you're going to kill your opponent and want to line up the nasty to get their numbers down from the get-go.

TeamTræls · Post by **TeamTræls** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:28 am

SillySod wrote:(the other times are when I have norse... norse are suprisingly similar to chainsaws).

I couldn't help but smile! That is so sigged

TuernRedvenom · Post by **TuernRedvenom** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:00 am

http://www.talkbloodbowl.com/phpBB2/vie ... hp?t=22802
tadaa!

katadder · Post by **katadder** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:33 am

as a pro-elf (or anyone AV7 i guess) I find it better to receive 1st as I cannot let my opponent have a free go on my fairly squishy sacrificial linemen. also I have no problems blitzing cages or getting into my opponents back field and stealing the ball off him so a quick TD can usually be followed by another quick one

SillySod · Post by **SillySod** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:56 pm

TuernRedvenom wrote:http://www.talkbloodbowl.com/phpBB2/vie ... hp?t=22802
tadaa!

Plenty of pearls of wisdom in there but some of the comments are funny... alot of people suggested that they like to kick with bashy teams but also wanted bashy teams to kick against them

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:41 pm

SillySod wrote:
TuernRedvenom wrote:http://www.talkbloodbowl.com/phpBB2/vie ... hp?t=22802
tadaa!
Plenty of pearls of wisdom in there but some of the comments are funny... alot of people suggested that they like to kick with bashy teams but also wanted bashy teams to kick against them

You know what that means? That means that individual coaching styles are the driving factor, and that there's no one right way. There is a lot of that in BB. It's like Magic in that regard, moreso than WFB/40K.

Smeborg · Post by **Smeborg** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:18 pm

Gimili -

I suggest you have answered your own question (your reply to my question 3).

I suggest you need to learn ways to score more quickly, since it seems you can trust your defense.

Hope this helps.

Warpstone · Post by **Warpstone** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 4:08 am

Gimli, the rule of thumb I use is "can I endure an opponent's drive without the bashing I'm about to receive deciding the game?" So long as I have the fodder or Armour to withstand a beating, I choose to kick. At AV9+Block for your entire line, I would think you're good there against everybody except the orcs (if they have chainsaws). You have the ability to kick-off first, react indifferently to your opponent's opening score and then make sure he never sees the ball again for a secure 2-1 for you.

As a Skaven player, I dread having to receive against Dwarves just because I'm usually too depleted by the second half (I score in two turns and then take a beating for the rest of the first) to turn them over. Also, I just naturally feel more pressure when I'm on offense as a turnover by me means that I lose the tempo and will now be doubly screwed (if I don't score to start the game, I won't even have a shot at the draw).

BTW, please ignore all of the above if we meet in the finals this year.