Dubbel 6 on skink with AG4

[DoubleSkulls]

I'd take +ST on almost anyone... however there are some edge cases I'd seriously think about alternatives.

I really disagree with SillySod over almost his entire list.

I agree about rostered Secret Weapons - they all are better off with the double (I'm not sure why SS missed the 'saw of the list I'd take DP).

Any S5 player it can be marginal. Block is a better tactical choice (since 2d with block is more reliable than 3d without), and cheaper in terms of TV so my preference for S6 is really more about flavour.

Otherwise I really just don't see TV being that much of an issue and I wouldn't be too bothered about trying to keep it low just to avoid another 20-30k of inducements. 6437 Dodge for 100k? Well worth it IMO.

[stashman]

Silly Sod please show us a team you have either in real life blood bowl or on MBBL, so you convince us that there are no +ST as you mentioned.

I totally disagree with Sods list where you shouldn't pick +ST

This chaos team in our league is awesome and there is might in strength:
1x warrior ST6
1x mino ST5
3x warriors ST4
3x beastmen ST4
7x beastmen ST3 (ST4 blitz)

... and one of my own hobgoblins 6447 Dodge (now I need block)

[PubBowler]

Silly Sod please show us a team you have either in real life blood bowl or on MBBL, so you convince us that there are no +ST as you mentioned.

Sure he's got a couple of FUMBBL teams to demonstrate his point.
Not that we should take one example/anecdote to settle the debate.

Personally, I'd take ST on more players than I wouldn't.

But I would say that it is of less benefit than it was in LRB4 where the hanidcap table was not as good as inducements, thus minimising the need to ensure value for TV.

[mattgslater]

Frankly, the fact that anyone complains at all about the extra 20k cost for ST5 over a double is a pretty strong statement that inducements are a touch too powerful.

[SillySod]

6437 Dodge for 100k? Well worth it IMO.

I'd rather have 6337 Dodge, Guard for 80k

Frankly, the fact that anyone complains at all about the extra 20k cost for ST5 over a double is a pretty strong statement that inducements are a touch too powerful.

I dont think that inducements are overpowered. However, I do think that 20k extra inducements (or 20k less inducements) is better than 0k of inducements.

Thats what it all comes down to... wherever the difference between +St and another skill is marginal you should take the other skill because it saves you 20k of inducements (and helps winnings a little). While 20k might not seem like alot all the small savings do add up. Even if they dont then I'm pretty sure the 20k will give you enough extra to get a chainsaw or prevent a chainsaw at least once during a season.

FUMBBL has recently implemented a new division known as [B}lackbox. Its essentially a division where people are allocated random pairings so you cant deliberately pick on weak coaches or more vulnerable teams. It tries to match teams up according to how strong they are, how strong their coach is, and if any handicaps will be in play (as well as a bundle of much more minor factors). The teams are measured by a value called team strength (I'll abreviate to TS) which is calculated by a FUMBBL specific algorithm. It is similar to team value in many respects including stat increases which add more to the players value than a regular skill.

I've had a pretty decent measure of success in the new division and part of that is through min/maxing the TS system. Two of the less peculiar teams I've done this with are Wo'sorans Dark Revenge and the Evil Munchkins. I think in both of those teams I've turned down a +St roll in favour of leader because leader is TS efficient while the +St is TS inefficient. None of this is quite the same as optimising TS for LRB5 leagues but I'm sure you can see that its a similar principal.

In terms of specific players people highlighted...
- elves are mobile so find it more useful, I still prefer guard on a lineman though
- chaos players really need skills, +ST is nice but really sets you back in the arms race for skills
- skinks/saurus... I would need to play more lizardmen to say for sure
- chainsaws... whenever I've played goblins I've used the saw as a blitzer rather than a fouling machine because it dosent have loner. Then again I've never skilled up a chainsaw.

[stashman]

Blackbox, LRB4 or LRB5 all rules are in some way diffrent.

Mostly we speak of LRB5 rules and I think it's almost always better to take +ST then a doubleroll for a skill. Thoose four bellow is the only ones where I can find "no good use" for a +ST player.

Snotling... Dirty Player, Pro, Leader

Deathroller... Frenzy, Frenzy, Frenzy

Fanatic... Block, Pro, Sure Feet

Bombardier... Pass, Accurate, Hail Mary Pass


Here are some of my own +ST players who do great on the field.

*wood elf lineman 7447 block, dodge
- great player, always worth his money

*thrall 6437
- much better than a vampire, becuse no bloodlust. worth every penny

*saurus 6519 block
- my little krox

*hobgoblin 6447 dodge
- awesome in a chaos dwarf team, strong, agile, and one of the fastest player in the team


BUT SOMETIMES something happens like...

My dwarf runner with both ST4 and AG4 got smashed collar bone and his ST was down to 3, but the player still cost +50K and I didn't keep him.

[Jural]

Frankly, the fact that anyone complains at all about the extra 20k cost for ST5 over a double is a pretty strong statement that inducements are a touch too powerful.

Or that people are very "complainy", to use a Dogbert phrase.

[Jural]

I want to just touch on Big Guys regarding doubles (of course, these are all my opinions... I don't want to say anyone is wrong.):

For a Treeman on Wood Elves, I'd consider +STR to only be an OK choice. Same with the Troll on an Orc team. But for Flings and Goblins, I think it's invaluable.

For the Wild Animals, I love +STR because they take fewer hits. I'd always give a 6+6 +STR to a Rat Ogre, a Snow Troll, or a Minotaur for Chaos. Chaos Dwarf, I might consider a mutation or Block.

For the Kroxigor, I find you want him to eat up a lot of space in the middle of the pitch, so +STR is better. But Guard, Block, and Stand Firm together make a great Kroxigor, so I can see it either way.

For a Beast of Nurgle, +STR makes them harder to hit or Dodge away from, I think it's an easy choice.

For the humans, Block and +STR seem an even call to me for the Ogre. You really want guard or grab on this guy, and eventually Stand Firm. So does +STR or Block make him better? I'd argue it comes down to playstyle.

For orcs, +STR is awesome at low TV, and unnecessary at high TV IMHO. At high TV, I'd rather have block and grab then STR 6. In the transition phase, both are OK. I've fired a +STR, Guard troll on an orc team before, and I'd do it again.

Mummies? I'd say always. At low TV, it gets you 3 Die blocks. At high TV, it allows your mummies to still dominate the point of attack even with a ton of guard around.

Tomb Guardians? It depends upon how you develop them. But I would typically say block is best to give you some reliable bash... But if you have two block tomb guardians, consider getting the +STR.

My point it simple, I hope. It's not an easy decision for the STR 5 players, but +STR is typically a good choice.

As for the cheap linemen (thralls, hobgoblins, etc.) I'd say it depends upon playstyle. At low TV, a +STR hobgoblin is huge. When your whole team has guard and is skilled up, it's probably an overpriced luxury. The great thing is though, that if you start taking casualties, it's a great back-up.

Thralls? I choose it. I don't think it's the best choice though.

[sann0638]

Thralls? I choose it. I don't think it's the best choice though.

Interesting philosophical point! Surely it must be "best" in some way if you take it

I almost always take it, just because it suits the flavour of the game.

That said, I have a 7347 Block dwarf runner that I turned it down on in favour of Dodge, which I may come to regret.

[Mad Jackal]

For a Treeman on Wood Elves, I'd consider +STR to only be an OK choice. Same with the Troll on an Orc team. But for Flings and Goblins, I think it's invaluable.

Trees on my Wood Elf teams would rather have Jump Up, or Block.

If it were the 3rd skill and a 6,6 roll then maybe I'd take st 7 instead of Pro or dodge. But that would be a rare occurrence anyway.

My current Tree only rolled 4 doubles, none of them were 6,6.
Block, Jump Up, Dodge, and went ahead to take Grab instead of Pro.

While I love drawing the tackle players to my tree, I suspect I would take Pro for the 3rd doubles next time and still take grab 4th over dodge.

your mileage may vary.

I took a strength boost on a thrall and would do it again. With vamps to gaze cage corners away I like having a non ofab player to blitz in and sack theball carrier.

[Storch]

Frankly, the fact that anyone complains at all about the extra 20k cost for ST5 over a double is a pretty strong statement that inducements are a touch too powerful.

Or that people are very "complainy", to use a Dogbert phrase.

I think it has more to do with the fact that inducements are meant to even out this game, but one of the cheaper and most widely used inducements (chainsaws) do permanent damage, thus feeling a lot like punishment for doing well.

[Jural]

For a Treeman on Wood Elves, I'd consider +STR to only be an OK choice. Same with the Troll on an Orc team. But for Flings and Goblins, I think it's invaluable.

Trees on my Wood Elf teams would rather have Jump Up, or Block.
...

That's exactly what I meant, it's not a bad choice (like catch, for example), STR 7 has it's uses. But STR 6 with a doubles skill does the job better for the Woodies. I think stunites can sometime be overwhelmed, and the extra point of STR stops it from happening.

[Jural]

Thralls? I choose it. I don't think it's the best choice though.

Interesting philosophical point! Surely it must be "best" in some way if you take it

It looks nice, and in theory should combo excellently with hypnotic gaze to get some excellent 2 die hits (especially with block and tackle being normal skill rolls.)

But in my experience, I don't find I'm missing STR with my team, but rather skills, so until the Vamp team is well on it's way, I have always felt that a skill would have been a better play.

I'm interested to see how the new rules for Bloodlust will change this, if at all.

[TuernRedvenom]

6437 Dodge for 100k? Well worth it IMO.

I'd rather have 6337 Dodge, Guard for 80k

Yeah but you're probably missing out on the chance of getting a 6437 Dodge, Guard player.
I'd take the strength on almost anything. Besides those already mentioned only low armour, low agility players with no access to dodge(like skeletons or thralls) are borderline cases, but I'd still take the +STR then just for the heck of it.

[DoubleSkulls]

6437 Dodge for 100k? Well worth it IMO.

I'd rather have 6337 Dodge, Guard for 80k

Really? Given you can get 4 Guard Blodge on the blitzers anyway? I don't find getting guard too much of a problem - and all stat increases are good for 'zons because of their sameness.

...leader is TS efficient while the +St is TS inefficient. None of this is quite the same as optimising TS for LRB5 leagues but I'm sure you can see that its a similar principal.

To me that sounds like your justification is TS min/maxing - which has nothing to do with LRB5 and little to do with game play. In fact what it smacks of is that the TS formula undervalues leader and probably overvalues +ST.

- chainsaws... whenever I've played goblins I've used the saw as a blitzer rather than a fouling machine because it dosent have loner. Then again I've never skilled up a chainsaw.

But your saw (under LRB5) HAS to hit with the 'saw - and can't make a normal block. So the only advantage is defensive - getting to S3 to protect against some blocks. However they don't start with dodge and there are few teams who have difficulty knocking over a skill-less S3 player.

DP combo's nicely with the saw to make it a better fouling piece. The voices in my head are telling me 'saw & DP stack as well - so you get either +3/+1 or +4/0 - making the whole foul a lot more effective. I'd say that was much better value than the alternatives.

The other contender there would probably be Pro (to reroll kick backs) or maybe block (but once again that is purely defensive). Then you are probably looking at dodge, diving tackle and/or sidestep as the next highest value skills anyway.