Beginner with orcs in first league, need some help

[AK_Dave]

I used to go for Catch and Sure Feet, with Nerves of Steel on doubles, but I think I'm going to start developing Gobs as safeties rather than receivers, with DT and SS, with Wrestle or Guard on doubles, as Gobs don't really need any offensive skills to be effective.

That looks like a solid Gobbo build, and I agree that they don't need a lot of help to be effective catcher/runner types. The skills that you (and I) would want to give them only provide a reroll to something that they already do. They skills you suggest giving them open new roles for them.

I'm a little surprised you don't suggest Dauntless for doubles on a Gobbo.

[DoubleSkulls]

Dauntless is a very poor skill on gobbos in Orc teams, and questionable even on gobbo teams.

Strip Ball is a better option IMO, and wrestle a good contender too.

Dauntless, at best, gives a 27.7% chance of knocking the ball loose (2+ to make dauntless, 5+ for the knock down on one dice).

Wrestle gives a 25% chance on two dice against, but 50% against another S2 player. Block is similar against non-block players.

Strip Ball gives a 44.4% chance, two dice against.

For gobbo teams a guarding gobbo can really make a big difference too - especailly if you've got a strip ball player too.

[DoubleSkulls]

My gobbo progression on Orc teams would generally be aimed at the receiver/one turner strategy. Catch, Sure Feet, Sprint. If I got a doubles first up I'd probably forget that and either go for Dirty Player (with sneaky git to follow) or Strip Ball/Wrestle (with sidestep/diving tackle to follow). +AG is gold. +ST debateable, but fun and you won't have the TV bloat for long 6,4 I'd take the MA and continue down the receiver path. 5,5 I'd take the double.

Later doubles on a receiver (2nd skill after catch for instance) would be difficult to reinforce the receiver (NoS or Block) or change tack.

I'd not normally develop defensive players (Diving Tackle/Side step) as I generally only want to field gobbos on "fast" offensive drives where they aren't as likely to get hurt, or if they do I won't be players down for long. Orcs teams have great Defence anyway and don't need the boost in that direction.

Having said all that I would not recommend gobbos on Orc teams for relative newbies. They are a point of weakness that can easily be exploited. Standard starting lineup 4 BOBs, 4 Blitzers, 1 Thrower, 2 Line Orcs, 3 RR, 10k bank is good.

[mattgslater]

I'd not normally develop defensive players (Diving Tackle/Side step) as I generally only want to field gobbos on "fast" offensive drives where they aren't as likely to get hurt, or if they do I won't be players down for long. Orcs teams have great Defence anyway and don't need the boost in that direction.

See, my Unified Theory of BB says: "Defense is Everything." Offense is for losers: if you go on offense twice per match on average, you're an average coach. If you go on offense once per match, you know you're doing it right (or at least better than your rivals). In fact, it's the exact opposite of American Football: the team that spends most time on O usually wins in the NFL, and usually loses in BB. So buying a guy an offensive skill is sort of like betting against yourself.

Plus, the truth is that while Orcs have great defense, having a safety who can get into funky spots and lend improbable assists is a huge advantage, and Orcs only have one player who can really pull it off. I'd say two Goblins are a liability on defense, but one is an asset.

Having said all that I would not recommend gobbos on Orc teams for relative newbies. They are a point of weakness that can easily be exploited. Standard starting lineup 4 BOBs, 4 Blitzers, 1 Thrower, 2 Line Orcs, 3 RR, 10k bank is good.

Ian's bang on here. Goblins are a nice trick player for an intermediate or advanced coach. In fact, they're one of the things that make Orcs so challenging at all levels. Orcs are to elves as the bass guitar is to the 6-string. They're easier to learn and harder to master.

[Mr. Bonebreaker]

Orcs are to elves as the bass guitar is to the 6-string. They're easier to learn and harder to master.

As a former guitar and bass player I second that.

Well, I think I will have some testing games with the gobbo and then choose if I am comfortable with him or go the easier way.

[TeflonDon]

I built an orc team some months ago for a rookie leauge - I'd played 3rd edition, but most of the other players were new to the game.

I did this:

3 BOB
4 Blitzers
1 Thrower
1 Lineorc
2 Goblins
4 Rerolls

It didn't work out too well, and today I'd do it differently by starting with only three rerolls and four BOBs. That would mean starting with only three blitzers, and I guess I'd upgrade one gobbo to a lineo, and bank the 50K for buying the last blitzer ASAP.

I absolutely wouldn't play orcs without having goblins in the field. Their mobility is unique for an orc team, and I find myself going to them when all else is failing - basically stunty and dodge means that they have a reasonable chance of getting to anywhere within their movement radius, and I've had them blocking elves over the sidelines or scoring TDs when I was seriously outnumbered.

However, as my team has evolved I am starting to rely less on the goblins. On offence (unless I need to score quickly) I field the troll, four BOBs, four Blitzers and two throwers (my throwers have been dying a lot, and so at the moment none of them have Kickoff return, whereas most of my opponents have block) - That is a fairly bashy approach, but it works well. On defence I substitute the throwers for a goblin, and my lineman with kick. The goblins come in on offence if I have injuries, or if I need to score in two turns or less.

I think that what the goblins really bring to the team is versatility. At only 80K for two they make it a lot less likely that you will be outnumbered, and they give you access to all sorts of skills. And your opponent never really knows what to expect - one turn you may just try to pound him flat, and on your next drive you are running a highly mobile running/passing game. Makes playing orcs a lot more fun if you ask me.

[Master Wang]

I went with the 4 Blitzers, 4 BOB, 2 linemen, 1 Thrower and 3RR (10K in the bank) last year. And although the team hasn't really seen much action, it worked out really well when I did use it (and am hoping to again soon). Give that line up a go - get an apothecary, save for the troll, then another thrower. I will get a couple of goblins for mine eventually as I have the figures, but only if the team gets to play more often.

[PubBowler]

See, my Unified Theory of BB says: "Defense is Everything." Offense is for losers: if you go on offense twice per match on average, you're an average coach.

So let me see if I understand this:

To go on offense twice in a game you only need to receive once at the start of a half and once from conceding a TD.

So above average coaches don't concede TDs. Ever.
Or at least so rarely that their average is is not significantly raised from one.

Looking at the NAF rankings (the easiest source of good coaches TD stats), shows us that the top 7 coaches (I got bored after this point), across all races, conceded 411 in 516 games.

This means they receive an average of 1.80 times a match.

(Excusing the (likely v.small number in this very above average cohort) of times where you are turned over and they score in turn 8 and riots taking you to turn 8 or beyond).

I could just wait for you to explain how you can be so off with your "Unified Theory" but I wouldn't be a the pedantic scientist that I am if I didn't suggest where your confounder is.

And I'm going to point to this:

(or at least better than your rivals).

I have no doubt that you are better than the other coaches you play against.
But as far as I can tell, you don't play FUMBBL or MBBL.
I can't find you on the NAF site either.
(I'd quite happy to be corrected on this).

This means your experience is likely to be very limited.
Not perhaps in games played but in quality of coaches played.

Too limited to be making over arching statements about the state of BB.

[mattgslater]

1) An average of 0.8 TDs allowed doesn't mean an average of 1.8 receiving drives, as not only are 1/16 of all turns taken at the end of a half, but a disproportionate number of scores occur on those turns. This becomes even more true when one factors out meaningless turn 8 kicks. Yeah, nobody'll ever average 1 over any meaningful length of time, because 1 is the minimum. But 1 is also the ideal, and if you averaged precisely 1.0 receiving drives per game over the season, that would probably make you the undefeated champion, and at the bare minimum would be an excellent sign. If 2.0 isn't the median, it's 2.3 or something. 2.0 is ok. It means you're allowing a little over 1 point. That's not great, but it'll keep you out of last place.

2) My general point on D/O time ratio seems to me a no-brainer. With a few notable exceptions in the form of bashy 2-1 specialists, winnning teams will kick more than they receive, and will spend more turns on defense than on offense. And even successful 2-1 specialists will only score more O turns than D turns either on a loss or on a straight-to-plan win; any time they get 2-0, 1-0 or a tie, any time they score 3... all those will yield either a roughly even number of D vs. O turns, or more D turns.

3) I stand by my perspective on the relative value of defense and offense, especially in a league. If you're going to focus on only one, I maintain that, provided your offense is at least average (you have some ball-getters, and some ability to either throw or cage) you'll get better mileage out of a defensive orientation. You can't run up the score if you can't score on defense, and running up the score is the easiest way to develop a strong team.

4) I'm an NAF member, but I'll concede your point about being a big fish in a small pond. It's true that I have spent more time talking with top coaches than playing against them. I haven't played a lot of tournaments and refuse to play online (not the same), but I have played a lot of BB.

[DoubleSkulls]

It means you're allowing a little over 1 point. That's not great, but it'll keep you out of last place.

I think this is an odd point. I beat a team 6-1 this weekend... so I received twice. If I'd beaten them 1-0 I'd have received once. Which is the better result? I think everyone would pretty much agree 6-1 was better than 1-0 - so your focus on this stat could be found misleading.

There is also the "score one more than them" in league play. Skaven and Wood Elves excel at fast scoring - but are fragile. Normally if they turn a slower team over once they will win or at worst draw the game. So once you've got your turnover then you don't need to pressurize the ball as much and can concentrate more on protecting key players.

With a few notable exceptions in the form of bashy 2-1 specialists

I don't think I'd call this a notable exception. Generally speaking many bash teams aim to win 2-1 by forcing a quick score then giving themselves 15 turns of grind, or 2-0 by turning over and taking the half over pounding. I'd probably say this was the prevelant strategy for bash vs flair match ups and so represents a very substantial number of teams.

[PubBowler]

If 2.0 isn't the median, it's 2.3 or something. 2.0 is ok. It means you're allowing a little over 1 point. That's not great, but it'll keep you out of last place.

Well now I think you're getting closer.
But as the best is 1.8 and (if we assume that the average (however you feel it is right to calculate it) is 2.3, 2.0 is not OK.

It's good.
Maybe not winning the tournament good but most likely top third.

4) I'm an NAF member, but I'll concede your point about being a big fish in a small pond. It's true that I have spent more time talking with top coaches than playing against them. I haven't played a lot of tournaments and refuse to play online (not the same), but I have played a lot of BB.

Apologies, I couldn't find you on the ranking list.
Did I miss you or have you yet to play a NAF tournie?

[Mr. Bonebreaker]

Alright, had some testing games and I am becoming more and more familiar with the team and the game.

Still, one question: The BoB's need to get block asap, unfortunatly I am unable to cause casualites (at least in all the game I played so far, I never achieved that, and all I do is blocking). When I get the ball I normally build a cage and run slowly down the field. Now how about handing of the ball to a BoB when I am next to the opponents endzone, instead of TD'ing with a thrower/blitzer? This gives a BoB 5 SSP and somehow it should be possible to recieve another to skill up. As handing off gives +1 on the diceroll we only need to throw a 4+, so chances are 50%, and I can reroll. Do you guys think this is to risky or viable strategy to skill up fast?

[mattgslater]

I beat a team 6-1 this weekend... so I received twice. If I'd beaten them 1-0 I'd have received once. Which is the better result?

And the team you beat 6-0 received how many times? 5? 6? 7?

I don't think I'd call this a notable exception. Generally speaking many bash teams aim to win 2-1 by forcing a quick score then giving themselves 15 turns of grind, or 2-0 by turning over and taking the half over pounding. I'd probably say this was the prevelant strategy for bash vs flair match ups and so represents a very substantial number of teams.

Sure, but many of their games are 2-0, scoring in turns 8 and 16, in which case they go 1-2 receiving-kicking. And if they can do better, they probably will. Follow a few such teams, Ian: the good ones still kick more often than they receive, and the bad ones still receive more often than they kick.

I'm not saying you should focus on that kicks vs. receptions stat over your W-L or TD for/against stats. I'm saying that the more you win, the more proportionally important defense gets. It's never truly "everything": you need offense, too. But winning teams score more often than losing teams*, and scoring generally puts you on D, so if you want to capitalize on success, build for D.

* I don't have to defend that one too, do I?

[PubBowler]

This gives a BoB 5 SSP and somehow it should be possible to recieve another to skill up.
Do you guys think this is to risky or viable strategy to skill up fast?

I think you mean 3SPP for the TD (unless i misunderstood you).

And yes it's a viable strategy.
But don't do it on turn 8 and always have a reroll handy...

[darren woodward]

Alright, had some testing games and I am becoming more and more familiar with the team and the game.

Still, one question: The BoB's need to get block asap, unfortunatly I am unable to cause casualites (at least in all the game I played so far, I never achieved that, and all I do is blocking). When I get the ball I normally build a cage and run slowly down the field. Now how about handing of the ball to a BoB when I am next to the opponents endzone, instead of TD'ing with a thrower/blitzer? This gives a BoB 5 SSP and somehow it should be possible to recieve another to skill up. As handing off gives +1 on the diceroll we only need to throw a 4+, so chances are 50%, and I can reroll. Do you guys think this is to risky or viable strategy to skill up fast?

Attempt to handoff to a BOB and score? Sure - provided the game was won already. If the result of that handoff was decisive i'd just hang on to the ball and score with the blitzer/thrower.

The BOBs will get there with blocking, MVPs and the odd lucky TD

I do fancy an Orc team next