Defensive Formations with Chaos

[quozl]

Hi guys,

I'm trying to put some real thought into my defensive setups, instead of my old approach of putting my best players on the pitch, in a symetrical formation that doesn't allow dodge free run throughs I've realised that I should be coming up with the defence I want, and then building players to fit that, instead of trying to build individually good players and then building a defence using what they have.

Any criticism, or pointing out of obvious mistakes, would be appreciated.

These are the players I currently have, and what skills i think they then need. I'd appreciate any criticism. I've read over the good threads on orc defence, which seems fairly similar.

Mi = Minotaur. Has block(!) and claw. Next skill tentacles, then stand-firm.
C1 = Chaos Warrior with block, guard, then stand-firm.
C3 = Chaos Warrior with block, Mighty Blow, claw next, then piling on or guard.
B1 = beastman with block, side-step then guard. Until they get side-step they will be one space further back to prevent crowd surf.
B3 = beastman with block, guard, then stand-firm.
B5 = beastman with wrestle, tackle - anti blodging ball-carrier.
B6 = beastman with +St, block - will get frenzy next and move to B7.
B7 = beastman with block, frenzy. MB as third skill. To put a crowd-surf threat on each side of the board.

Code: Select all

-- -- -- -- | -- -- C1 B3 C1 -- -- | -- -- -- --
-- B1 B3 -- | -- C3 -- -- -- C1 -- | -- B3 B1 --
-- -- -- -- | Mi -- -- -- -- -- B7 | -- -- -- -- 

Anti bash defence. Protects the minotaur from an early blitz, especially chainsaw. Leaves him free to blitz himself next turn. Minotaur and frenzy B7 provide a crowd push threat on both sides of the board.

Corners with SideStep mean no blitz can free up a dodge free path through.
Guard Beastmen B3 help protect the corners, and the LOS chaos warriors.

I don't like to have only beastmen on the LOS as they are a lot more fragile than Chaos Warriors. However it is nice to have the CWs mobile/standing after turn 1, so I leave 2 off the LOS, protecting the players in safety positions.

Here's a variant on the anti bash defence. I see this as for use against teams that can't knock a S5 mino on the LOS down. I'm struggling to think of who that actually is though! I'm thinking almost nobody. Who do you put the mino on the line against? Against agility I like to have him further back.

Code: Select all

-- -- -- -- | -- -- C1 Mi C1 -- -- | -- -- -- --
-- B1 B3 -- | -- B3 -- -- -- C1 -- | -- B3 B1 --
-- -- -- -- | C3 -- -- -- -- -- B7 | -- -- -- --

Anti agility defence.

Code: Select all

-- -- -- -- | -- C1 -- B3 -- C1 -- | -- -- -- --
-- B1 B5 -- | C3 -- -- -- -- -- C4 | -- B6 B1 --
-- -- -- -- | -- -- Mi -- B7 -- -- | -- -- -- -- 

Spreads the line out a bit to force them to commit more players to the LOS or ignore it.
This means that C3 and C4 warriors have to go a bit wider, so I move Mi and B7 inwards a square each to prevent any blitz leaving a dodge free path through.
B7 can still crowd surf anybody on his side of the board without GFI. Mino cannot, but I think players will try to avoid minotaurs side of the board!
B6 is my S4, block beastman. He goes on the opposite side from the minotaur as I guess they'll go this way. He'll be getting frenzy next and will then replace B7 at safety.
I bring B5, the wrackle beastman, on for anti-agility defence. I'd like to have him on for all defence but don't see who to drop in anti-bash def? He'd be good versus dwarven runners, or other block/sure-hand carriers.
I put him on the mino side as he's less help for his corner, but I guess that players will go the side away from the mino and he can reach anybody with 2 turns of movement.
Minotaur is off the line ready to blitz, once I get tentacles on him I'll use the blitz action to hit, and then hopefully move beside any groups of more than 1 runner/catcher. I fell in love with tentacles on the BoN.

I have a blodging beastman, but see no real use for him on defence unless I put guard on him next, which I don't want to. Wish I'd given him Sidestep, as I'm waiting for my second side-step beastman. On offence I'll give him 2 heads or sure hands and make him a good runner. I've avoided surehands/extra arms so far as I'm worried it would concentrate my SPPs on these players.

[Decker_cky]

Something that jumps out....in general, I will avoid putting skilled/expensive players on the line. If possible, I have 3 rookie or block beastmen on the line. You want your warriors mobile, not just standing in the center of the field knocking down a few guys or being knocked down themselves. Also, putting S4 players on the line is rarely worth it. Maybe you'll remove 1 block, but if you don't you risk a good player rather than fodder. Line fodder should be fodder, so make it cheap players.

Against fast teams, I tend just to go for a 3-4-4 defence that forces them towards the centre of the field unless there's frenzy on the opposing team (without me having SF, or with them having jugger, etc..). This really makes defence a little easier, as it means you can clog their players up more easily.

Against bash, tend to keep players further forward. If playing against mummies, I'll try to stay 4 squares back from the line to make their blitzes riskier.

I want to minimize my men being marked, keep my guard mobile, and stop opponents from breaking through in general. A general plan is good, but there's always KOs, casualties, super players or whatever else that changes how you have to play, so I don't really have a strict way to play my defence.

[quozl]

Thanks a lot, Decker_cky.

By 3-4-4 do you just mean to drop the corners back one square each?

I've avoided putting my beastmen on the line, as I only have 1 single beastman with just block, the rest all have 2 skills. That makes them 100k! and only av8

I think you're right about me being more effective if I can keep my chaos warriors free, but, chaos warriors absorb hits a good bit better than beastman.

I guess they do cost a good bit more than beastmen too though!

Does nobody like the idea of using Chaos Warriors to form the line?

[Decker_cky]

Code: Select all

-- -- -- -- | -- XX -- XX -- XX -- | -- -- -- --
-- -- -- -- | -- -- -- -- -- -- -- | -- -- -- --
-- -- -- -- | -- -- -- -- -- -- -- | -- -- -- --
-- YY -- -- | XX -- -- -- -- -- XX | -- -- YY --
-- -- -- -- | -- -- -- -- -- -- -- | -- -- -- --
-- -- -- -- | -- -- -- -- -- -- -- | -- -- -- --
-- AA -- -- | XX -- -- -- -- -- XX | -- -- AA --

Something like that. It minimizes attempts to break through on either side, so you just have 1 front to defend on. It has weaknesses, but it's a good scheme for medium speed teams against agility teams. Get stand firm players in the YY positions and put tackle/strip ball/wrestle players in the AA positions and you tend to have a favourable position after the kickoff turn.

[mattgslater]

There are a lot of 3-4-4 formations out there. The one you have in the top post is a 3-5-2 formation, but if you drop the corner back to the spot he'd be if he didn't have SS, it would be 3-4-4.

How many SS Beastmen do you currently have? Your diagram indicates you have two, but then you say "until they get Side Step...."

I like the Minotaur at ILB. Opponents can't game up the line to smack him with their hunter, and if they try to get him with a big guy they have to risk their Blitz on a 2+ negatrait roll, after trying a blocking chain. Undead are the exception, but even then it's one more action and you'd have a guy getting hit by the Mummy anyway.

I think Side Step changes things more than you think. If I had two of them, here's what I'd do.

Code: Select all

-- -- -- --|-- -- C1 B3 C1 -- --|-- -- -- --
-- B1 -- --|B3 -- -- -- -- -- XX|-- -- B1 --
-- -- B7 --|-- B6 -- -- -- C3 --|-- Mi -- --

XX is B5 against speed and C3 against bash.

If I had just one SS'er, I'd do it differently.

Code: Select all

-- -- -- --|-- -- C1 B3 C1 -- --|-- -- -- --
-- -- B3 --|-- C3 -- -- -- -- C3|-- -- B1 --
-- B6 -- --|B5 -- -- -- -- Mi --|-- B7 -- --

Let your SS'er fall back and outside. This keeps the seal intact, and keeps the opponent on the outside of it. If he follows, the Mino or B7 will knock him off the board. If he doesn't follow, he's failed unless he gets a KO or cas. If you do this, don't get Guard for the SS'er, as they won't use it much (too bad, too, 'cause it's a fun combo). How about Tackle? Each drive, one will be going for the ball-carrier while the other plays run-stopper or coverage. In that case, I'd put Tackle boy outside of B7 against speed and outside of the Mino against bash, to force people into unpleasant decisions (the theory being that bash teams don't care about your Tackle, so put up the cheap guy).

I'd get Sure Hands next on B6. A ST4 ball-carrier with Block, SH and MA6 is a dream come true for a cage team, and it makes a great safety. The ST4 safety corps is a great luxury you have, as with your SS'ers, you can use that inverted formation that puts a little extra pressure on your safeties if the line doesn't hold.

Don't worry about relative cost for BM vs. CW on the line. Warriors cost 40k more and get +1ST and +1AV, both of which improve their survivability. At two skills, the CW is only 40% more TV, makes your line better with the extra ST, and when he goes down is only 60% as likely to get hurt.

[quozl]

Thank you, Mattgslater. That was excellent - exactly the sort of info I was looking for.

I do only have the one SideStepper at the moment, it was wasting a double on a dodging beastman that really made me think that I ought to be creating a team for a defensive setup, rather than trying to make the best individual players.

I really do appreciate the help.

[DoubleSkulls]

I'm trying to put some real thought into my defensive setups, instead of my old approach of putting my best players on the pitch, in a symetrical formation that doesn't allow dodge free run throughs I've realised that I should be coming up with the defence I want, and then building players to fit that, instead of trying to build individually good players and then building a defence using what they have.

I am a strong advocate of building for defence - but I don't believe in building for defensive setups.

Generally speaking defensive set ups only matter against fast teams or those intent on a quick score. Opposing bash teams are going to hit the line and blitz someone - and then try to ensure you can't get to the ball carrier. Poor defence would be allowing them to frenzy someone off the pitch, or distributing your defence in such a way that they can remove many players from the game for a turn or two.

So I think your original position - build a good team and get a decent defence for it is more sensible.

[Axtklinge]

Just out of curiosity, how about Vampire teams?

With AG4 they may qualify as Agility team, and with ST4 they may go into bashing as well (theres a V team in my league with 2 ST5 and 1 ST6 Vamps, and they "bash" a lot!).
Not only that but with "Hypnotic Gaze" they can easily to open holes in bashy defenses, and can do 2-turn TD's quite easily.

What are your experiences with this?

[Genghis]

(theres a V team in my league with 2 ST5 and 1 ST6 Vamps, and they "bash" a lot!).

How much does he want for his dice?

[DoubleSkulls]

Just out of curiosity, how about Vampire teams?

For an individual game its largely relative. Compared to Wood Elves, humans are a bashy team. Compared to Khemri humans are a flair team. Add into that the developmental status of the two teams to get a final relative ranking.

Also a lot of it is about speed and play style. Even a very bashy skaven team will probably try and penetrate to the backfield to give themeselves the option of a quick score - even if they are playing against woodies. Whilst a dwarf team normally won't care about "breaking through" but will be more concerned with setting up for a good bash next turn and protecting the ball.

Vampires don't fit the general bash/flair mold well - they can bash against flair or flair against bash and that also depends on the development. They are more of a specialist team.

Defending against vamps, well they aren't that quick, so you can generally not have to worry about them breaking through and getting behind your lines.

[mattgslater]

Generally speaking defensive set ups only matter against fast teams or those intent on a quick score.

See, I'm generally in agreement that it matters more against speed, but a well-designed defense can force a bash team to cage near the LOS, making it easier to get a score out of a turnover, and can be well-positioned to take advantage of a lucky kick, a bad pickup roll or an early error. This is especially true of Chaos, which can hit pretty well and does good at getting up to the middle of the offensive backfield. You generally don't need to provide an assist to get a blitz off on the ball-carrier. For this reason, you want to set up so as to have key players close to the LoS. Side Steppers can be particularly frustrating if they are allowed into the backfield.

That said, a lot of the "put this guy here, that guy there" is more critical against agility teams. Still, optimal is optimal, it's certainly not irrelevant or anything like it, and defensive setup is one of the easiest things to control.

[mattgslater]

I think of 'Zons and Vamps as bash teams, just because they lack MA7 and thus have a problem building in two-turners. I think the biggest tests for an agility team are: 1) all or almost all of your guys are ball-carriers, 2) you have significant access to MA7+, 3) you have problems holding the line, and 4) throwing ST4+ at the point of attack. Vamps answer yes to two of those, and Zons to two, but it's #2 that I think matters most.