Lizards vs Dwarfs: how to win???

bouncergriim · Post by **bouncergriim** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:11 pm

I love playing lizards, but I always have a hard time with dwarves and was looking for any advice on how to beat them/ skill up to beat them.

I have the following team:
6 Sauri
4 Skinks
1 Skink w/ wrestle
1 skink w/ sidestep

3RR

No money

My plan for purchase is as follows: Apoth, Krox, RR, and keep the # of skinks at 6.

I can keep pace with most other teams, so I really want to develop this as the anti dwarf lizards. Help give strategy and advancement advice

someone2040 · Post by **someone2040** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:35 pm

Pack up and go home?
I dunno, I'm not the most experienced Bloodbowl coach around, and my first game with Lizardmen pitted me against the Bearded Stunties. Didn't go so well (Didn't go terrible... but, it was just rediculously hard to do anything).
I think undeveloped Lizards will have issues with Dwarfs, since we don't have a lot of skills around (And our one saving grace of Skinks, Dodge, is negated by their Blockers). Makes things difficult when Dwarfs can pretty safely throw 1 dice blocks against Saurus (With assists of course, or running around with Troll Slayers) and well, they have a fairly good chance of knocking you on your ass.

I'm sure more experience guys in fighting Dwarfs can give you a better picture. I get the inkling that Wrestle Skink might be useful for breaking Dwarven cages if he can manage to dodge in.

tenwit · Post by **tenwit** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:19 am

Frenzy is excellent against dwarves, so long as you pay attention to where their guarders are. If you can push their faster players two squares further from your skinks, then they have noone able to keep up.

Hit their runners as soon as you can. Keep your skinks away from blocks. Pay attention to the clock, but score when the dwarves have two turns left to play. There's a slim chance you can turnover, and there's no hope of them scoring against you. Plus, you'll have more in the KO bin than them..

Standard anti-dwarf policies apply. When getting into the thick of it against them, you usually don't want to follow up pushes, especially against linos, since linos aren't going to blitz, and won't be able to navigate around your sauruses to put TZs on your skinks. Don't worry about scoring fast against them, there's nothing wrong with scooting around your half of the pitch separating weak members of the dwarven pack for easy pickings. Don't cage through their line if you can help it; far better to hustle sideways and leave a few of the slow-coaches behind, you can score later.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:50 am

I don't think many teams can reliably beat Dwarves, and Lizards are particularly vulnerable.

If you really want to beat them you must have kick - because your best bet is swarming the backfield before they cage up. Unfortunately this is normally a really low priority skill for Lizards since skinks would need to use a valuable double up to get it, and Saurus skill slowly and Kick doesn't help them skill up quicker.

Other than that try to ensure all their blocking is against Saurus, make sure you hit the runners & troll slayers as much as possible and keep the skinks away from the longbeards. Obviously he'll be trying to do the opposite!

Finally I think you really need to try and isolate their ball carriers. If you can mark runners with ss/dt skinks and block off the route to the ball carrier you ought to be able to force a turnover - but that requires a lot of luck if you don't have kick.

bouncergriim · Post by **bouncergriim** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:39 pm

Okay, so here is the advice I see so far:

As far as strategy: Do not follow up blocks by Sauri, Keep skinks out of harms way, manage the clock as much as possible, seek and destroy positiononals especially runners and blitzers (potential ball carriers AG3 and all). Don't rush the TDs and try to isolate dwarves to minimize guard. Protect the ball when I have it with SS/DT skinks and sauri to cage ball carrier

Skill selection:

Skinks:
Kick would be good eventually (before playoffs) so for my skinks I have a Wrestler next I need a sure handed skink, then if I get it a kicker skink. My other skinks I am going to pretty much stick to the SS/DT combo. I prefer defensive to offesive skinks. Maybe a couple with catch before DT. And definitely take any Str,Ag, or AV. ( I don't really need more MV)

Sauri: order of skill selection Break tackle on first Sauri, Block on next 2, Break tackle again, finish with blockers. On two of the blockers I want guard (wishful thinking here that I will get that many SPPs) one the BT, they need block and a couple of stand firm blockers would be great.

Krox: when I get him Stand firm (to really use that P.Tail) then Guard, and if doubles block. I like to keep the big guy as a passive threat to avoid bone head rolls.

For standard play against everyone, I am thinking of trying to slow down my TDs some and focus on getting blocks done by the sauri. So I want to try to have my sauri mostly on the line to block and then when on offense have one or two in the back field to help the skinks cage the ball, then move the cage as I need to up the field taking advatage of speed and being able to shift which side of the field I am on. In other word focus on lateral avoidance more than swiftly moving towards the endzone.

tenwit · Post by **tenwit** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:15 pm

bouncergriim wrote:Do not follow up blocks by Sauri

Change that to "don't feel like you have to follow up blocks by Sauri". Obviously there are exceptions to the rule.. but by and large, saurus and dwarf toe-to-toe hurts the saurus more than the dwarf, due to the sauruses superior MA.

Re: skill selection:
Kick is very useful, and if I'm about to skill on a saurus that I plan to retire, I'd seriously consider Kick. But I don't think I'd ever put it on a Skink. In my current (newish) team I'm putting it on one of my two safety sauruses, who's going Wrestle/Kick/Tackle.

Oh, and Wrestle is a very very good saurus skill. Get it twice. My suggestion for saurus development at the moment is:

- Break Tackle on the first normal skill. Develop this guy into a blodge-hunter.

- Dodge on the first doubles on a saurus with no skills: he gets BT, Block later and becomes the first safety. Any other BT sauruses will also take Dodge. The only other double to consider is Jump Up, on anyone with Frenzy or Mighty Blow.

- Wrestle on the second to get a single normal skill.

- Block on all other first skills (unless Dodge/stat gets in the way).

Depending on how I rolled, I'll then be working towards:
BT/Wrestle/Strip Ball/Tackle (safety)
Wrestle/Kick/Tackle/Frenzy (safety)
Block/Mighty Blow/Guard/Stand Firm (cager)
Block/Guard/Stand Firm/Grab (cager)
Block/Mighty Blow/Piling On/Tackle (hunter)
Block/Break Tackle/Frenzy/Stand Firm (utility)

The lower down on that list they are, they more flexible I am with the position. So if the second guy to skill rolls +MA, I'll take it, but the next guy gets Wrestle, since I'm still prioritizing the Wrestle/Kick/Tackle position.

Though if you don't think that you'll be getting more than two skills per saurus, just put Wrestle on the two who get Break Tackle first. The others would be Block/Guard x2 and Block/Stand Firm x2.

bouncergriim · Post by **bouncergriim** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:03 am

I like the wrestle suggestion. I will probably put that on both of my Break tacklers after they get B.T. I find that it is easier to get that second skill on Break tacklers, because they blitz more.

Block on all others then guard and stand firm alternating.

I don't like dodge on a saurus because evetually it can be cancelled and I find it hard to quickly skill up a dodgasaurus. this is a short league and a lot of other teams have more games under their belt than I do.

I do think with all this wrestle, I am going to need a sneaky git ( I love to make injured skinks become Sneaky Gits).

Here are my thoughts on skinks:
Normal rolls SS, DT, then sure feet
Doubles I already have a wrestler, next I need a sure hands guy maybe alternate between those two skills.
I also need to put catch on some skinks.

But My favorite skill to start a skink with is SS. It helps them stay out of trouble better and is great for chain push situation and keeping strong positions. That and very few players in my league use grab.

bouncergriim · Post by **bouncergriim** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:37 pm

It is a fairly short league so how would you develop sauri if each could get two skills only. And also most skinks will only have 2 skills by playoffs, one or two might have three.

Right now I have
1 Break tackle saurus
1 Dodge/block Saurus
1 Block Saurus
3 unskilled SPPS on each 5,5(mng),2

Skinks
2 Side steppers (spps 15,11)
1 Wrestler (spps15)
1 Sure hands (spps10)
2 Unskilled (spps 3,0)

I am doing a good job of trying to spread out the SPPS. Want a team of skill balanced players, rather than a couple of stars (targets).

Still at 3RR, an apoth and saving for my Krox (100k in bank), then a RR.

When I go into play offs 6 games/2months from now I want to have 6 sauri each with at least one skill, 7 skinks 4 with two skills+ and the rest with 0 or 1 skill, a krox with stand firm, and 4 RRs.

I will probably face dwarves and wood elves in the playoffs (the toughest teams to beat I know). Right now I am ranked 3rd in the league bloodbowl.dallasgames.com http://bloodbowl.dallasgames.com

PubBowler · Post by **PubBowler** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 5:09 pm

Block & Break Tackle for a couple is a classic option and none the worst for it.

Block & Guard Saurus is nice to stop being completely guarded out of the game.

Block & Frenzy is worth bearing in mind as well.

bouncergriim · Post by **bouncergriim** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 5:26 pm

I am thinking of going wrestle frenzy, to ensure I can open a hole for my skinks to run through.

I want an advantage over the dwarf block and an ablity to make sure I can do somthing to the wardancers I will face.

On one of the skinks I am going to take sneaky git. I need to be able to make the most of knocking down ag 3 dwarves and the wardancers.

Tripleskull · Post by **Tripleskull** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:56 pm

Break tackle is higly overrated as first skill on Sauri! Take it as 2nd skill on wrestle players to make important blitzes. I only miss break tackle when things are badly, and then 5+ might be ok ods. Take control of the game instead of trying to compensate. Get a basher: block, Mighty blow, frenzy. Get security skills for blocking to save RRs and do damage.

Did your krox die resently since you dont have one? Exploit your teams strength, start with all ST players.

Especially if you want to beat dwarfs you need blocking skills: Block, wrestle, Guard. If both sides have block/wrestle AV 9 and some guards I wonna be on the ST 4, MA 6 side.

Asuming the dwarfs have the ball, they will need some players to protect it. Use your SEVEN ST 4+ players to dominate (stop him from moving forward and put krox and guard on the ball carrier when possible) and keep you skinks out of the way. You should be able to do this with a couple of blockers, a couple of wrestlers and a couple of guards. Dont worry about the ball carrier so much untill things start to crumble for the dwarfs.

BIG Pete · Post by **BIG Pete** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:57 pm

I know this is off topic slightly but i think the it may tie in, but will amazons play in a similar way to the skinks?

bouncergriim · Post by **bouncergriim** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:10 pm

I have been inducing the Crox until I could afford him. I got a late start in the season and am still low TV wise compared to the rest of the leaderboard.

The nice thing is in my league, if you induce a merc with one skill, you can buy him at the end of a game. So that is how I want to get my Krox with stand firm. I used him versus the dwarves already and he was a valuable asset especially near the sidelines where the dwarves like to run with their slayers nearby.

So what would you suggest I do with the sauri I already have?

The Blodger sauri will be difficult to get a 3rd skill on in only 6 or less games.

The Break tackle, what should he take next? probably block.

The blocker... I am thinking guard

The unskilled I want frenzy on two of them then wrestle next I think.

The last one unskilled block or Break tackle? then guard.

I really focus on the sauri, because as great as skinks can be... They will die sooner than later. And an unskilled skink is still very good at scoring quickly if he has the support to protect him.

Tripleskull · Post by **Tripleskull** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:33 pm

bouncergriim wrote:So what would you suggest I do with the sauri I already have?

well, no.

-Im advising against break tackle as first skill, its not a bad skill, but there are many better for first choice. Its a little late, but its my advice.

-I would not take frenzy without block or wrestle first.

-I would get block, mighty blow for blitzing to not get tempted to blitz with the krox.

-Next skill for the break tackler should be wrestle.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:10 pm

On BT guy, I'd take Wrestle next. On Block guy, Stand Firm or Guard (or Kick...). On the unskilled guys, I'd open with Block or Wrestle over anything else. I'm sure you know to mark Longbeards with Saurus (that's why Block is so important; 1/2d is sometimes a good idea against no Block, but if you have Block their odds drop through the floor). Try to leave Slayers unmarked (if standing) so they have to blitz, but try to make them do it at midfield or against your SS'er. As is true for anyone against Dwarfs, the Runner is both lynchpin and weak link.