Underworld Starting Theory.

nerdkingdan · Post by **nerdkingdan** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:42 am

After reading Plasmoids wonderful guides on Underworld. I noticed he didn’t really talk about starting the team that much.

I played a bunch of first off games for the experience of it against other new teams to see what I could learn. I may not be the most experienced couch, though I did play 2nd and 3rd extensively I didn’t like 4th so I took an extended break. Anyway…

What I found was my recommendation for a starting 100 league team and why.

1 Troll
2 Storm Vermin
2 Skaven Lineman
7 Goblins
4 Rerolls
1 Apothocary.

You will notice that I didn’t buy the throwers, I found after several very poor starts that if you buy 6 skaven, you suffer from the glairing skaven weakness that 3AG 7AV players stuck in tackle zones are likely heading for the casualty roll. If you have sufficient goblins on the pitch to provide assists for the skaven you can keep them out of trouble. Whenever skaven get stuck, the goblins should be able to swarm with enough assists to allow the skaven to get out. The lineman should be build to be blitzers, while the storm vermin should be built to hold the line. You will want to buy a thrower soon, but I’m not really sold 6 skaven 1 troll 4 goblins on the pitch the same time will work well, unless of course you end up with +AG or dodge on some of those skaven, as plasmoids team has on his team. If the skaven get stuck they die. Like I read in a post on here by Galak the teams who cause the most casualties typically play against skaven the most.

I completely agree with plasmoid about using Storm Vermin for the line, your apothecary is reserved for them, regardless of who else gets injured. Putting them on the line reduces your casualties because of their block and av. If it backfires the apothecary should be held for the storm vermin, their access to guard makes them good in this role long term.

So far I really enjoy this team. You use the skaven lineman to blitz, use the goblins to block paths and provide assists. The Storm Vermin and the troll provide a good line.

I did my first game on the league I was preparing for, got a solid win against a chaos team, who is going into its next game at 88 team raiting. I got enough to buy a thrower after my first game. Losing a goblin next game to miss game injury I’ll be putting my too many skaven on the pitch theory to the test when I’ll likely be forced to run 5/1/5.

I’ll post how it goes.

Ullis · Post by **Ullis** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:46 am

I started my Underworld team with this build:

1 Troll
2 Blitzers
2 Throwers
2 Linemen
4 Goblins
4 Rerolls

11 players in total and no apo to begin with. I got enough winnings to buy the apo after the first game.

I would definitely get at least one thrower, as at first offense was my biggest obstacle. I just couldn't punch a hole through the enemy line and the goblins low movement coupled with AG3 and Animosity on the Skaven meant that the team wasn't very mobile. The passing option was good and won me games. This could just be down to my inexperience in using Stunties, but all 6 skaven feel really important both on offence and defence. Sure, you'll lose one every few turns against bashy teams, but that's why getting all 6 is all the more important. The goblins aren't too good at taking hits either as it's easy to get 3-d on them and when they do get knocked down, their chances of staying down are a lot higher than for the skaven.

nerdkingdan · Post by **nerdkingdan** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:51 pm

I think I'm going to agree with you about having a thrower long term, it should be the first purchase. However should you end up playing 2 games with out an apothecary I imagine you will be down a few skaven.

I think your comments on the goblins tell me you should try a few goblin team games. They really are very good as long as the opposing team isn't filled with tackle once you get over the learning curve. I played goblin and halfing quite a bit before I switched to this team, so maybe thats why I am used to them being more than catchers. Alot if it is using them to restrict the other teams movement rather than using 3 of them to do a two dice block on something.

The reason I love this team is that I try to stay out of tacklezones, and use the skaven to do a blitz or a block or two if my opponent trys to get on the skaven. The goblins with 2 heads and stuntie may not run fast, but they can run through places other players would have to go around.

My favorite bit of the last game was my opponent made a line of choas to keep me from the ball, and 4 goblins simple dodged through it to get the ball carrier.

Ullis · Post by **Ullis** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:46 pm

nerdkingdan wrote:I think your comments on the goblins tell me you should try a few goblin team games. They really are very good as long as the opposing team isn't filled with tackle once you get over the learning curve. I played goblin and halfing quite a bit before I switched to this team, so maybe thats why I am used to them being more than catchers. Alot if it is using them to restrict the other teams movement rather than using 3 of them to do a two dice block on something.

You're probably absolutely right. I really only use the goblins as assists and restricting movement on defence. My main problem usually is that the 3+ dodge is too unreliable. I can't count on getting two of them in a row and getting even one is going to fail 1 times out of 9. I only have 3 SPP's on all my goblins (since no MVP's have landed on them, thanks partly to having all the skaven). That was from a TTM goal.

Ullis · Post by **Ullis** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:50 pm

On topic though, I'd still start with at least one thrower. Skaven throwers are really not too good out of the box. I took Extra Arms on the other as a first skill and Accurate on the other. I ended up using the Extra Arms a lot more and he has even gotten more completions than the one with Accurate.

One of the rerolls could be switched to an apo.

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:59 pm

Hmm, here's my teake. I copied this from a thread on the MBBL I wrote a long time ago:

Starting Roster
Like Zephard, I like rerolls. But you do have quite a few stability skills, and gobbos sometimes blow their dodge anyway, so I think that 3 will suffice for starters.
I went:
2 blitzers, 2 linemen, 1 thrower (350K)
7 gobbos (280K)
1 Troll (110K)
3 ReRolls (210K)
Apothecary or 5 Fan Factor* (50K)

*If everybody starts their team at the same time, take the apothecary.
If you are a newbie in an established league, take the FF, and use the TV-difference to get "free" apoth(s) until you can buy your own as your first purchase.

As you can see from the team, I like to have spare players, so I can trade a lowly gobbo for an opposing star, by making a foul now and then. Just don't overdo it.

Your shopping list is: Apothecary, then thrower, then replacements or a 4th reroll, depending on your progress.

nerdkingdan · Post by **nerdkingdan** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:32 pm

plasmoid wrote: 2 blitzers, 2 linemen, 1 thrower (350K)
7 gobbos (280K)
1 Troll (110K)
3 ReRolls (210K)
Apothecary or 5 Fan Factor* (50K)

Interesting, the only difference was dropping the 70K reroll for a 70k thrower. Maybe I went to heavy on the rerolls, but 1 argument you could make for my layout over this one is that rerolls after the start are twice as much.

With that said, I like the starting number of players, it has the healthy number of goblins to keep the skaven out of trouble. It also provides a backup skaven and a backup goblin allowing the team to still hold that 4/1/6 layout I like so much for longer.

I will say this, my first game allowed me to buy the thrower this team has, and I end up with a net gain of 1 reroll. Its nice to see my research into it yielded results similar to other experienced players

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:11 pm

Hi Nerdkingdan,
I think they'd both work, but naturally I prefer my own

You're right that yours is 70K saved in the long run, and that is definately a priority.

But for me, the 4th reroll is not that big a priority - because the team has a fair bit of stability.
And I like having the extra player.
And a single player with sure hands and pass (and access to leader if you want) can easily replace a reroll in most games.

Cheers
Martin

nerdkingdan · Post by **nerdkingdan** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:20 pm

I think looking at your later team and development posts you ended up with 15 players 5 rerolls.

In the long term it looks like we will be getting both any way, the question comes on whats the better route.

After giving it much thought, I'm happy my current league team is ahead 70k because I went with the reroll over the thrower. From a strictly mathematical sense going with the reroll is better gold wise... However... from a SPP generation being able to throw the ball, and having an extra skaven around to keep at least 4 on the field yours is better.

In the end considering most starting plans are about the best balance to win early and develop well your set up is slightly better in the earlier games, Until it comes time to buy a reroll. if you consider average goblin casualties, average 40k, then yours is better for the first 5 games, at which point you are likely to the point of nothing else to invest in but that 4th reroll.

I think I would break it down like this. If you want to focus on using the goblins with skaven blocking do:
2 blitzers, 2 linemen (280K)
7 gobbos (280K)
1 Troll (110K)
4 ReRolls (280K)
Apothecary or 5 Fan Factor* (50K)

If you don't have goblin experience do:
2 blitzers, 2 linemen, 2 thrower (420K)
5 gobbos (200K)
1 Troll (110K)
3 ReRolls (210K)
Apothecary or 5 Fan Factor* (50K)
10k Banked or +1 FF (10k)

The Best Balance:
2 blitzers, 2 linemen, 1 thrower (350K)
7 gobbos (280K)
1 Troll (110K)
3 ReRolls (210K)
Apothecary or 5 Fan Factor* (50K)

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:22 am

Looks sensible enough

One note - that 5th reroll is a trophy reroll. I only bought the 4th one.
Cheers
Martin