Humans - Theoretical LRB7 Discussion

Gropah · Post by **Gropah** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:34 pm

plasmoid wrote:0-1 "Big" Guy: Trained bear (secret weapon, very stupid - ST4)

that's hilarious!
I can so picture that bear chasing, and eating, wood elves...

SillySod · Post by **SillySod** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:29 pm

Av8 catchers would be fine. I like the way the team works - you just need a little more motivation to field catchers (especially in defence) without changing the way they work.

purdindas · Post by **purdindas** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:15 am

Someone has probably brought this up before but what about halflings in a human team? Orcs get golbins so why cant humans get halflings?

Lictor · Post by **Lictor** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:21 am

After reading through this entire thread, no one has actually mentioned what the problem IS with Humans. Or is everyone just wanting change for the sake of change?

If people think Humans are NOT bashy enough, they need to look at Babs' Humans in the Corsairs league; finesse is not in their design.

And I do not understand the problem with the Concept that Amazon's bash. They are Valkyrie; Athletic Warrior Women. They have no outright strength and rely on the ability NOT to be hit to stand a chance.

So what is actually wrong with these teams?

Al the Trowel · Post by **Al the Trowel** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:15 am

Lictor wrote:After reading through this entire thread, no one has actually mentioned what the problem IS with Humans. Or is everyone just wanting change for the sake of change?

I was thinking just the same.

My view is that Humans have been weakened by a strengthening of all the other teams. The other teams with higher cost linemen, positionals, and rerolls received a massive boost when the link between Fan Factor and winnings was broken. In LRB 4 most coaches spent 90k on fans to maximise income going forward. In LRB 5.0 number of fans had very little bearing on total income, so coaches are spending that 90k on players or rerolls. Teams like Orcs, Dwarves and Wood-elves are starting life much more strongly than previously, so are much more competitive at low TV.

The reason I think this has caused such a problem for humans is that the design was to be an average stat team and an average cost team that had skill re-rolls. Their place in the team lists was a roster that could play any type of game with an ok chance of success - they had blitzers and mid range armour to play a bash game against softer opponents while they have passing skills, catchers and an ok turn of speed to play finesse against slower bash teams. They don't have the racial stat advantages to excel at either. However that is in part compensated for re-roll skills. The early access to skill re-rolls combined with moderately priced positionals meant that Humans could field a team that could run, bash and pass straight away while other rosters had to develop a little in order to a) afford all their players, and b) pick-up the reliability that humans have built in.

Basically Humans used to have low TV advantage but that has been eroded now that coaches have more money to build teams with.

I think this what needs addressing - make Humans stronger out of the box again. Other teams racial advantages will catch-up and overtake them at mid TV.

I think that could be done just be tweaking the existing catcher and possibly the blitzer price. Give the catchers another skill (maybe fend) or extra strength (which would bring them into line with Helf catchers).

A blocker is on the wrong lines - it would direct the team too much down one avenue of play, especially if you reduce the number of blitzers too compensate. Humans must retain the ability to play both finesse, and bash but not to play either exceptionally well.

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:51 am

I think Al has hit it on the head (apart from the ST3 catchers, which I still dislike).

prisma · Post by **prisma** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:43 am

Al the Trowel wrote: I think that could be done just be tweaking the existing catcher and possibly the blitzer price. Give the catchers another skill (maybe fend) or extra strength (which would bring them into line with Helf catchers).

A blocker is on the wrong lines - it would direct the team too much down one avenue of play, especially if you reduce the number of blitzers too compensate. Humans must retain the ability to play both finesse, and bash but not to play either exceptionally well.

Fully agree with this...

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 12:08 pm

Al is spot on IMO. 80K Blitzers is a no brainer for me. 90K is just wrong. More expensive than a Gutter Runner?

Also, Catchers should be 60K by the cost formula, which might explain why everyone else finds them so unattractive (I think they rock). Make them 60K or give them a skill like Fend.

Simple changes, boosts the team without changing their dynamic. Cheap and versatile without excelling in any one area.

SillySod · Post by **SillySod** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 12:43 pm

For the love of .... catchers dont need to be cheaper or are the fabled positional which needs fend. They need armour, they work superbly as a mobile assist which doubles up as a scoring threat and later on they begin to work really well in a defensive role with block/sidestep. The problem is they can never survive that kind of treatment for too long even if you keep them away from tackle and mighty blow.

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 12:50 pm

Maybe they aren't meant to survive Peter ... some players are effective but have a limited career. Making them cheaper to replace enhances their effectiveness just as much as improving their profile.

Al the Trowel · Post by **Al the Trowel** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:19 pm

I don't like the idea of tweaking the catcher into something expendable - it jars with the enjoyment of nurturing a team, developing it, and allowing your players to develop their skills and history. Sure some are short lived, but I'm not sure the roster should push anyone towards that (except linemen).

I think SillySod may have got the right idea for catchers - increase catcher armour, price unchanged. It decreases the massive target on their back and gives them the chance to develop along with the rest of the team.

Blitzers should have the price dropped too.

bouncergriim · Post by **bouncergriim** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:28 pm

I prefer keeping the human team pretty close to what it is right now. I think it makes sense for the catcher to have less armour, and others want to keep his str at 2. So I think adding a skill makes more sense for humans, they are a highly skilled versitile team. I really like the fend idea, because it puts a skill out there that is under utilized. My only quam with it is that fend is a kind of unique skill and might be confusing for a newbie with the box and a LRB.

purdindas · Post by **purdindas** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 4:30 pm

prisma wrote:
Al the Trowel wrote: I think that could be done just be tweaking the existing catcher and possibly the blitzer price. Give the catchers another skill (maybe fend) or extra strength (which would bring them into line with Helf catchers).

A blocker is on the wrong lines - it would direct the team too much down one avenue of play, especially if you reduce the number of blitzers too compensate. Humans must retain the ability to play both finesse, and bash but not to play either exceptionally well.
Fully agree with this...

I also concur.

SillySod · Post by **SillySod** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 4:37 pm

Joemanji wrote:Maybe they aren't meant to survive Peter ... some players are effective but have a limited career. Making them cheaper to replace enhances their effectiveness just as much as improving their profile.

Mmmmm, that makes sense. I usually find that the problem is that they cant survive a drive especially well though, rather than having an issue with the player turnover.

I definately dont think the price needs increasing though, whatever happens - a price increase would indicate that you've probably done something a bit too drastic.

Rhyoth · Post by **Rhyoth** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:25 pm

Well there's a lot of idea here, but some of them really bother me, so I'd like to precise some points before we go off-topic.

The human roster works quite fine the way it is, but it has IMO 2 great lacks :
_for a suposed multi-purpose team, they should have little more physical (brutal?) strength.

_they really deserve to have 2 players with both Str 3 and GA skill access
(IMO 4 players lie that would be too much : they're not elves)

However we shouldn't drop some basis of their game (basic specialists, with personnal RR, supplied by average and multi-use linemen), so Human rosters should always keep :
_at least 4 players with GA skill access and 4 players with GS skill access
(if you increase GS access, you should increase GA access the same way)

_at least 2 dedicated Catchers, 2 dedicated Blitzers, and 2 dedicated Throwers
(the loss of 2 Blitzers could be easily balanced by the combination of Blockers and Runners/ST 3 Catchers)

_the good old "bad-at-nothing-good-at-nothing-6338-no-skill-G-access" linemen
(what the hell have they done to you that make you want to decrease their stats so badly ?)
even if they're going to be smashed over and over again, they're still able to make key actions sometimes (with a TRR remaining of course)

To finish, let me remind you we're not here to boost humans roster (they don't need it), but to change a little their gameplay, so :
_Human Catchers (as well as other Catchers, skaven's GR, Ghouls, Skinks...) should have low AV :
this kind of player prefer speed and agility, towards protection. They're also difficult to take down because of Dodge (and Block for experienced ones), so they must remain easy to break
(AV 8 for Runners could be discussed, but I don't like the idea)

_Human Blitzers (and other Blitzers, Wardancers, Werewolves, Bull-Centaurs...) should be expensive :
they are the masterpiece of the team, because of their better stats and they're good starting skill(s). They're also very versatile, especially if the TRR price is low, and even more in a quite cheap team like human
(lowering their price wouldn't change their in-game performance, but will just make human team easier to Manage in long-term league)

EDIT : 80k blitzers would also be too good in short term league/Tournament :
you could easily start a team with 4 Blitzers + 1 Ogre + 2 Catchers +1 Thrower + 3 TRR