Humans - Theoretical LRB7 Discussion

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 6:55 pm

6/3/3/9 isn't as good as 7/3/3/8. Simple as that. Oh, and Orc Throwers are objectively inferior at the same price.

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:05 pm

Hi all,
Gropah said:

Where's Plasmoids and his stats when you need it? I'd prefer empirical evidence, if nothing else to make sure I'm not talking out of my ass stating Humans are low Tier 1

Right, my site is back up.
Check my sig for details.
The stats can be found here:
http://www.plasmoids.dk/bbowl/LRB5Stats.htm

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:21 pm

Meh?
Why make amazons more girly?
Amazons are deadly ball-crunching xena'esque warrior chicks.
I like that they're mobile bash.
And I love that the current human team is jack of all trades (master of none).

I'm quite sold on 80Kblitzers, 80K catchers with AV8

Cheers
Martin

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:53 pm

I like Ian's Jump Up Amazon roster though. A lot.

I don't like the current one, because the Dodge/Tackle interaction means they are either 'better' than their TV suggests, or 'worse'.

mattgslater wrote:6/3/3/9 isn't as good as 7/3/3/8. Simple as that.

I disagree, and gave plenty of supporting evidence.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:54 pm

mattgslater wrote:@Ian: Orcs are average in your stats, I see, but you yourself have speculated that they lose an undetermined amount for the newbie effect. That was what I was referring to, and I think it's bigger than one would suspect. But yeah, I'm a little surprised that Orc teams are so firmly in the pack given their 15(!)) positionals. Maybe I have a bias because I tend to play medium-length fixed seasons, which are sort of optimal stomping ground for a team with lots of ST and most of the key starting skills.

One thing you could look at is how well those teams perform in the hands of "experts". The only way I can think to do that is look at the top end NAF coaches.

The 10th best Human coach - Geggster - at 172.93. The highest Human ranking is 191.26.

The 10th best Orc coach - bloodangelwolf - is at 195.04. That's a very substantial gap in NAF terms and higher than the best human. There 7 Orc coaches ranked over 200 (including Geggster).

The highest human ranking is #191 over all on the NAF.

The only other tier 1 races that have a worse "top" performance are Chaos & High Elves, which I'd argue are famed slow starters. Humans on the other hand, with a relatively cheap team, cheap rerolls and lots of skills would appear to have lots of pluses at low TVs.

So from a fairly restricted view of NAF tournament games it seems pretty clear that very good human coaches do not perform as well as very good Orc coaches (and Orcs are not the top tournament race).

Plasmoids stats have Orcs & Humans having similar performance levels at league play (at the bottom of tier 1).

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:45 pm

Those stats really bring out that, in tournaments at least, Humans really need a boost. Chaos have already had theirs in a way, with a new improved roster in the form of Chaos Pact.

I don't agree that the "some teams should be a challenge" argument applies to Humans. That's what stunties are for. Humans are supposed to be some of the best in the fluff, they are one of the teams in the box.

Ikterus · Post by **Ikterus** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 2:37 am

Joemanji wrote:Those stats really bring out that, in tournaments at least, Humans really need a boost. Chaos have already had theirs in a way, with a new improved roster in the form of Chaos Pact.

I don't agree that the "some teams should be a challenge" argument applies to Humans. That's what stunties are for. Humans are supposed to be some of the best in the fluff, they are one of the teams in the box.

Agreed.
The trick is to make them better and still not make them elfy or pure bashy.

They are supposed to Jack of all trades, Master of none. Filling that role and still be top of tier 1 and balanced is no easy feat.

I for one belive that one method of accomplishing this is to give humans more positionals that each are 0-2.

Great catchers but only 2
Great blitzers but only 2
0-2 Blockers? (giving them other skills than Block is interesting and is a way to introduce Grab, Wrestle or Fend to the begining player)
0-2 Runners? (In my book should theese guys be pre-skilled linemen ~70K (sprint?, dauntless?, sure feet?, juggernaut?) )
0-1 Halfling? (would be fun)
Loose the Ogre? (Trade the Ogre (too unreliable) for a halfling would be fun, the blockers would fill the LOS-slot anyhow)

4 catchers = Elfy play
4 blitzers = Bashy

The trick is not to make humans more bashy but even more balanced. This makes the human player have to play both flair and bash.

So a wild suggestion out of the hat:

0-16 Linemen 6 3 3 8 50K
0-2 Blitzers 7 3 3 8 Block 80K
0-2 Catchers 8 2 3 8 Dodge Catch 90K
0-2 Runners 7 3 3 8 Juggernaut, Sprint ? K
0-3 Blockers 5 3 2 8 Wrestle, Fend ? K
0-2 Thrower 6 3 3 8 Pass, Sure Hands 70 K
0-1 Halfling 5 2 3 6 Stunty, Dodge 30 K (?)

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 4:53 am

ianwilliams wrote: One thing you could look at is how well those teams perform in the hands of "experts". The only way I can think to do that is look at the top end NAF coaches.

The 10th best Human coach - Geggster - at 172.93. The highest Human ranking is 191.26.

The 10th best Orc coach - bloodangelwolf - is at 195.04. That's a very substantial gap in NAF terms and higher than the best human. There 7 Orc coaches ranked over 200 (including Geggster).

The highest human ranking is #191 over all on the NAF.

The only other tier 1 races that have a worse "top" performance are Chaos & High Elves, which I'd argue are famed slow starters. Humans on the other hand, with a relatively cheap team, cheap rerolls and lots of skills would appear to have lots of pluses at low TVs.
...

That's a really good start... take the top 5%, 35%, and 50% of every race (top 10 is not ideal because not all races have the same number of ranked opponents) and rank them side by side. I think you'll find out really quickly which teams, in a tournament environment, are the most powerful in the hands of a good coach that way... and I think that speaks volumes about how good the teams are as well.

Now... I wish there was some way to do that for leagues.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 5:11 am

Ikterus wrote:I for one belive that one method of accomplishing this is to give humans more positionals that each are 0-2.

Changing mini mix on teams needs to be done very carefully and with very serious consideration - especially when that team is one of the commonest for people to own. Even if this wasn't the case previously I think it should be the case now.

So I'd much prefer looking at how to change the current set of positionals to make the team slightly better and slighty more bash.

That I think is probably around making a the catcher S3. Perhaps 7337 Catch, Dodge GA/SP 90k. Blitzers dropping to 80k or staying at 90k could be considered too.

Then that leaves it open to make 'zon catchers 8237 Catch, Dodge 70k, with the linewomen losing dodge and getting changed. Maybe 6337 Fend GA/SP. 'zon throwers could lose dodge too and gain something more relevant or maybe just drop to 60k.

Gropah · Post by **Gropah** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 7:42 am

plasmoid wrote: I'm quite sold on 80Kblitzers, 80K catchers with AV8

I've been aboard this proposal for quite some time, and I think it could be implemented with little to no playtesting (

).. but now that ianwilliams finally gave a few concrete hints to what he had in mind it's an interesting vision!

I could totally see a somewhat slower human Catcher with ST3 and give the original human stats to the amazon Catcher. If only changing the human team I'd go with +AV, but in conjunction with hotting up (if such a thing is possible;)) the 'zons a bit more semi-radical change could work.

EDIT: Oh, and thanks and nice work on getting your site back up plasmoid! Nothing like a bit of numbers, even if these (Human W/L %) makes me sad

Ikterus · Post by **Ikterus** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 10:05 am

ianwilliams wrote:Changing mini mix on teams needs to be done very carefully and with very serious consideration - especially when that team is one of the commonest for people to own. Even if this wasn't the case previously I think it should be the case now.

But the beauty is that it doesn't affect the excisting minis. You still have two catchers and two blitzers (and that's what you get in the box).

prisma · Post by **prisma** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 10:38 am

I think wether 7 3 3 8 ist better or not than 6 3 3 9 depends on the rest of the roster. If humans had enough fast AND 'hard' (want to say: being able to get involved in the blocking game, with St 3 and proper skills) positionals, then I agree that 7 3 3 8 is better. The problem I see now with humans is, that half of your blitzers is bound to the LOS (otherwise you seriously lack some ST-skills there) and if the other half wants to capitalize their high MA they're only supported by very soft St 2 and AV 7 players.
Therefor I think what humans need in order to make better use of their blitzers are better catchers.

ianwilliams wrote:... making the catcher S3. Perhaps 7337 Catch, Dodge GA/SP 90k. Blitzers dropping to 80k or staying at 90k could be considered too.
Then that leaves it open to make 'zon catchers 8237 Catch, Dodge 70k, ...

St 3 human catcher's are the right way to go IMO. If high and pro elves catchers have St 3, humans shouldn't be below that. And I'm not sure wether it should be 7 3 3 7 catch, dodge or 8 3 3 7 ..., I tend more to the latter. I think catchers should be a point of movement faster than blitzers. Given all this, ST 3 and MA 8 would be the way to go.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 10:58 am

Ikterus wrote:
ianwilliams wrote:Changing mini mix on teams needs to be done very carefully and with very serious consideration - especially when that team is one of the commonest for people to own. Even if this wasn't the case previously I think it should be the case now.
But the beauty is that it doesn't affect the excisting minis. You still have two catchers and two blitzers (and that's what you get in the box).

Most coaches with human teams will have four blitzer minis and four catcher minis. So with reducing it to 0-2 blitzers & 0-2 catchers they have four minis surplus to requirements. I don't want to do that.

Ikterus · Post by **Ikterus** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 11:26 am

ianwilliams wrote:
Ikterus wrote:
ianwilliams wrote:Changing mini mix on teams needs to be done very carefully and with very serious consideration - especially when that team is one of the commonest for people to own. Even if this wasn't the case previously I think it should be the case now.
But the beauty is that it doesn't affect the excisting minis. You still have two catchers and two blitzers (and that's what you get in the box).
Most coaches with human teams will have four blitzer minis and four catcher minis. So with reducing it to 0-2 blitzers & 0-2 catchers they have four minis surplus to requirements. I don't want to do that.

Noted. But I still think just adding more bash is a bad way to go.

Try to make humans better at being Jack of all trades instead.

Diving Catch might have helped giving Humans better passing game. But I'm looking for specific unique things to make Humans the ultimate average Joes, only successful.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 2:02 pm

I think Human teams should only start with the most standard of skills: Block, Dodge, Catch, Pass, SH, of course, maybe something else. Rules-wise, they should be very straightforward.

I like 8/3/3/7 Catch 70k: it keeps the player at the same price, gives all players roughly Human statlines (better at that than the original in fact), keeps in with the theme and cost structure of high elves, is a somewhat better bargain than the original (+ST for Dodge), and helps the running game significantly.

I'm also down with the idea of 8/2/3/8 Catch, Dodge 80k, if y'all think that really is a net improvement. Even at 70k, he wouldn't be as good a bargain as a Gutter Runner: maybe just the AV bump with no price change. Also note that changing the price means reworking the math. The Human structure is nice and flexible at 1M as is, one of their primary assets.

Changing Catchers to a Ghoul template on a 0-4 basis would be too much. Humans already have the best OLBs in the game (well, after the Stormvermin and maybe the Trollslayer or Norse Berserker... right up there); giving them 4 top D-backs would make them a dominant team. The only teams with really great OLBs (MA7+ or Frenzy, S access) and really good corners (ST3, Block or Dodge, A access) are Amazons and Norse, and they pay for it with a big downside (lack of high-end mobility + poor armor = occasional disaster). Moreover it would be affordable. 1Million = 3 RRs, 3 Linos, 1 Thrower, 3 Ghouls with Catch, 4 Blitzers. Look out world.