Humans - Theoretical LRB7 Discussion

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 9:34 pm

I want 'zons to be the fast human team and keeping MA8 catchers on humans I think undermines that.

stashman · Post by **stashman** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 10:04 pm

Amazon
0-16 Linewoman 7 3 3 7 Sprint GA/SP 50k
0-4 Throwers 7 3 3 7 Accurate, Sprint GAP/S 70k
0-4 Blitzers 7 3 3 7 Wrestle, Tackle, Sprint GAS/P 90k
Rerolls 50K

Human
0-16 Lineman 6 3 3 8 G/ASP 50k
0-2 Throwers 6 3 3 8 Sure Hands, Pass GAP/S 70k
0-4 Blitzers 7 3 3 8 Block GS/AP 80k
0-4 Catchers 8 3 3 7 Sure Feet, Catch GA/SP 90K
Rerolls 50K

Al the Trowel · Post by **Al the Trowel** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:58 am

ianwilliams wrote:I want 'zons to be the fast human team and keeping MA8 catchers on humans I think undermines that.

Ian does JJ and the rest of the rules review team share that vision?

For a recasting of the two teams role I could live with human catchers at 7337, 7238 or preferably 7338 which would max out the Human top speed at 7.

I'd suggest
0-16 Linemen 6 3 3 8 G/ASP 50K
0-2 Throwers 6 3 3 8 Pass, Sure Hands GP/AS 70K
0-4 Blitzers 7 3 3 8 Block GS/AP 80K
0-4 Catchers 7 3 3 8 Dodge, Catch GA/SP 80K

That would make space for an Amazon team with MA 8 receivers. But to avoid the Zons become a Blodge running team you need to restrict access to agility skills or general skills on the linewomen.
Maybe:
0-16 Linewoman 7 3 3 7 G/ASP 50k
0-2 Throwers 7 3 3 7 Pass, Sure Hands GP/AS 70k
0-4 Blitzers 7 3 3 7 Block, Dodge GAS/P 90k
0-4 Catchers 8 2 3 7 Dodge, Catch GA/SP 70k

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 1:12 am

I don't know if I could get on board with humans having catchers and blitzers who are the same speed. But making Amazons faster than humans seems to necessitate that...

Unless the blitzer went to 6 3 3 9 Block at 80k. Then with 7 3 3 8 Catch, Dodge catchers, you really have changed the team... and significantly different from any other team...

I imagine that a catcher and blitzer with the same statline and a 6 MA blitzer would be unpoupular... so that leaves 8 MA catchers. Something has to give!

I guess there is one way I could see the human catchers and blitzers being the same speed- if the catchers were more defensive. So a 7 3 3 8 Tackle Dodge start, or a 7 3 3 8 Catch Tackle start. Pass Block would be fun- but it's too complex a skill to start on a human roster (really on any roster.)

Sorry for the mind dump, I'm just thinking it through.

Gropah · Post by **Gropah** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 1:45 am

stashman wrote: Human
0-4 Catchers 8 3 3 7 Sure Feet, Catch GA/SP 90K

MV8 goes with ST2 (and then AV8), and ST3 goes with MV7 (while keeping AV7). I think your Catcher is an over the top powerhouse.

Tripleskull · Post by **Tripleskull** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 1:53 am

I think the suggested amazons are something as rare (for team suggestions) as unplayably weak.

Compared to skaven they are a bunch of girls...

SillySod · Post by **SillySod** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 2:38 am

As much as I hate the current amazon roster I think it would be a real shame if the human roster suffered from being compared to it. Just make the amazon roster a similar speed but with more availability to agility/finesse skills and maybe a faster thrower or something. 0-4 Ma7 throwers with pass and dump off could be a cool way to go.

plasmoid wrote:I'm quite sold on 80Kblitzers, 80K catchers with AV8

I see where you're coming from there. However, think about it like this....

- Humans already take all 4 blitzers as early as possible, heck every human strategy guide I can remember reading recommends maxing out on blitzers early

- Humans tend not to take too many catchers at the moment, they are good but not easy and even great coaches seem to prefer stacking blitzers

- Humans are supposed to have quite good roster variations with the old prices (they might with yours too, in fairness)

Why not make the catchers 70k and the blitzers 90k? It would have a net effect of buffing the team slightly while encouraging diversity. Dropping blitzer price is likely to hurt diversity even more - coaches will go with the easy/powerful option every time... its not a big issue but it seems like a shame to miss out on a chance to give coaches a harder decision when building their team.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 3:37 am

Ghoul-as-Catcher is very powerful on a team with 0-4 MA7/Block/GS Blitzers.

What about this for the Catcher, on an otherwise unchanged Human team?

7/3/3/7 Catch, Sure Feet, GA 80k

Rhyoth · Post by **Rhyoth** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:41 pm

Starting without Dodge is very bothersome .... when you you play AG 4 elves.

Humans (AG3!! ) without Dodge would be much more difficult to handle.

So a "Ghoul" with Catch seems a better option for a ST 3 Catcher.
(yes it's very powerful, but since humans need a boost....)
The fair price would be 80k (maybe 90k if Blitzer go down to 80k)

If you're ready to increase Catchers prices even more, add them Sure Feet or 1MA point.

prisma · Post by **prisma** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 1:21 pm

If we were to make a more consequent change to human catchers... MA 8 for obvious reasons (catcher should be faster than blitzer), ST 3 (ordinary human strength), AV 7;

8 3 3 7 catch, dodge, 90k

...then the amazon catcher could still be a little faster than human catchers - not by higher MA, but by skills:

amazon catcher
8 2 3 7 divingcatch, dodge, surefeet, 80k, ga/sp

'zon thrower
7 3 3 7 pass, [dump-off OR safethrow], 70k, gp/as

an interesting suggestion for the amazon linos could be
7 3 3 7 jump-up, 60k, g/asp

'zon blitzer
7 3 3 7 block, [jump-up OR sidestep], 90k, gas/p

Melipone · Post by **Melipone** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:50 pm

prisma wrote:If we were to make a more consequent change to human catchers... MA 8 for obvious reasons (catcher should be faster than blitzer), ST 3 (ordinary human strength), AV 7;

8 3 3 7 catch, dodge, 90k

...

It seems likely to me that when following this route the catcher will end up being used as a blitzer - just one skill up from becoming a ST3 blodger.

From reading this thread it seems there are two separate objectives, a) to compensate an underperforming Human team in LRB6, b) Ian's suggestion to reduce catcher speed to 7 so that Amazons can be the faster, lighter human team in a theoretical LRB7. With that in mind:

Solving A:

0-4 Blitzers 7 3 3 8 Block GS/AP 80k
0-4 Catchers 8 2 3 8 Dodge, Catch GA/PS 70k
+etc as LRB6.

Then, solving B, modify this roster to decrease the speed of the catcher. Given Ian's additional request that catchers remain at 0-4, I think eight MV7 STR3 players starting with block or dodge is a bit too much. So now I would suggest:

0-4 Blitzers 7 3 3 8 Block GS/AP 80k
0-4 Catchers 7 2 3 8 Dodge, Catch, Sure Feet GA/PS 70k
+etc as LRB6.

Other changes I would suggest for LRB7 would be to change Block to a Strength skill (this way wrestle would become the standard "lineman's choice" after a skill roll, rather than block, and would also give linemen a tough choice between guard and block on rolling a double for most teams), rework Norse so that linemen and throwers get wrestle instead of block and the whole team except runners have armour 8, and also give dwarves a 0-4 blocker position (same as current) and add a lineman at 5 3 2 8 Tackle, Thick Skull, G/ASP 50k. But I need to think through my arguments on those, and probably start another thread

.

Podfrey · Post by **Podfrey** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:50 pm

Discussed this with another very well established and versatile coach via PMs. Apart from Al the Trowel on about p.4 and Joemanji, no one else has tried to point out the weaknesses or why they are trying to address them. And Humans definitely have weaknesses!

Looking at the Undead roster, apart from a +/- 10% valuation on Mummies, it's hard to dispute the costs of any of their players. Even the 70k rerolls are the highest in the game. And yet they're considered to be one of the top, if not THE top, teams. Compare this to the Humans where again, apart from the Blitzers (a maximum of +/- 4 Team Value), all the players are costed OK and the rerolls are 50k. So what's the difference? The answer is the synergy of the teams.

Mummies block the way with Str 5. Wights act as mobile (AG 3 can dodge when need be) Blitzers. Ghouls provide the speed (and can be turned into fast Blitzers). And the glue that holds them all together is the cheap Zombie who gets hit, then gets up again. All the components a running team needs to get the job done and no wasted effort. Because of this, although the prices are right for the stat line, there is no "wasted" expense in any of them. No AG 3 Mummies. No MV 5 Zombies. No AV 9 Ghouls, etc.

Compare to the Humans. They have excellent and speedy Blitzers...... who then get Guard and have to "waste" their speed by hanging round the LoS providing assists. Fast catchers who then "waste" their mobility by lying in the dead box/KO. Even AG 3 linemen who never end up dodging!

So what to do? Well, assuming for one minute that the Human team is almost right then the plan should be to mitigate some of these losses. A good start has been made with AV 8 Catchers. They're still vulnerable, but they're not going to go off straight away. Another similar would be Thick Skull ("they get hit a lot - they're used to this sort of thing!"

). One that would really help though is to free the Blitzers up to do some actual blitzing by allowing another player to help out on the LoS. Already suggested has been a "Blocker" of some sort and that's what's needed. But they shouldn't be too slow (MV 5), should take over the job the Blitzers are almost forced to do (Guard), shouldn't be unagile, but at the same time shouldn't be able to reposition this Guard too easily (AG 2), shouldn't be caked in armour (keep AV

and for all of this should not be too common (0-2). This would increase the synergy of the Humans, keep their current roster more or less intact, and give a use for Dick & Dom (2nd player on 1st line & 4th player on 2nd line)

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:34 pm

lucifer wrote:...One that would really help though is to free the Blitzers up to do some actual blitzing by allowing another player to help out on the LoS....

Now I agree with that sentiment and I think that is the crux of the problem. There are three ways to tackle that problem
A) Make catchers viable blitzers (e.g. S3)
B) Introduce a new blocker position to go on the LOS
C) How about just giving the linemen GS access?

The more I think about C the more I think it could work.
1) Human linemen are unskilled to start - and generally slow to skill. So you won't see 5 Block/Stand Firm/Guard players in game 3.
2) Given Av8 they are still pretty soft so turnover will prevent them making them too good at high TVs
3) It gives the linemen a function on the team other than just making up numbers

What do you think?

prisma · Post by **prisma** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:47 pm

ianwilliams wrote:
lucifer wrote:...One that would really help though is to free the Blitzers up to do some actual blitzing by allowing another player to help out on the LoS....
Now I agree with that sentiment and I think that is the crux of the problem. There are three ways to tackle that problem
A) Make catchers viable blitzers (e.g. S3)
B) Introduce a new blocker position to go on the LOS
C) How about just giving the linemen GS access?
...
What do you think?

I think it's clearly A).

I wouldn't want human linos become 'stronger' (st-access) than orcs or norse (regarding the linos). It would give them too much of a beastman feeling.

With average strength the catcher can finally become a useful player. I don't think the argument "I don't want catchers to be blitzers" is a valid one - we already have that constellation (ST 3 catchers) on high elf and elf teams and their blitzers are still those teams' working horses - even without st-access. With their st-access, human blitzers will definitely be far from unnecessary if paired with st 3 catchers.

If you compare the human and the orc roster, you'll see that (even if orcs have slightly worse throwers and a slightly worse big guy) the human catchers have to make up the value that blackorcs and gobbos together add to their roster. To me it's obvious that this can only be done with st 3.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:29 pm

That's not at all obvious to me. To me the core of the problem is not that Catchers are ST2, it's that they're just a poor deal compared to other catchers on the market. I really like that AV8 bit, and I don't think it demands a price hike. If it doesn't end up being sufficient, then it's always possible to do more, and it's highly unlikely to be problematic.

You could also keep Catchers exactly as they are, but drop them to 0-2, and put in a 0-2 "blocker" figure, if such a figure could easily be adapted from existing lines (that new 16-model Human team wouldn't be hard to work out, as the linos are kind of Blitzer-y, and the Blitzers are kind of Blocker-y). But that does mean making new positions, even if it doesn't lead to the kind of conversion headaches that often arise out of these discussions. I'd like to see any Human Blocker look really vanilla: 5/3/3/9 Block GS 70k?

Another idea: split the Human team up into Imperial teams (0-2 Dwarfs, 0-2 Catchers), Marienburger teams (80k NOS Catchers or GAS Blitzers or something), Border Princes teams (0-2 Ogres, 0-2 Blitzers, 0-2 Catchers, 60k TRRs, maybe Accurate Throwers instead of Pass), Bretonnian teams (Hobgoblin linos, 60k TRRs, upgraded positionals, no Ogre, no MA8) and of course Amazon and Norse teams.

Another fix is to knock the Ogre down to 130k. This isn't egregious, but it is cheap for what you get. What it does do, though, is make it that much more feasible to dedicate line space to the Ogre.