Humans - Theoretical LRB7 Discussion

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 3:51 pm

See, that's why I'm for a tune-up rather than an overhaul. Humans are very good on paper, but on the field they're competitive at best. So a little bump to try to get them into the exact middle of T1 might be called-for. It doesn't take much to make a big impact.

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 5:47 pm

I'm all for a small buff to humans.
But the thought of ST3 catchers just makes me cringe. It just takes away so much of the flavour of what a catcher is. Talk about power creep.

Eh - I hope LRB7 is far off

Podfrey · Post by **Podfrey** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:10 am

ianwilliams wrote:
lucifer wrote:...One that would really help though is to free the Blitzers up to do some actual blitzing by allowing another player to help out on the LoS....
Now I agree with that sentiment and I think that is the crux of the problem. There are three ways to tackle that problem
A) Make catchers viable blitzers (e.g. S3)
B) Introduce a new blocker position to go on the LOS
C) How about just giving the linemen GS access?

The more I think about C the more I think it could work.
1) Human linemen are unskilled to start - and generally slow to skill. So you won't see 5 Block/Stand Firm/Guard players in game 3.
2) Given Av8 they are still pretty soft so turnover will prevent them making them too good at high TVs
3) It gives the linemen a function on the team other than just making up numbers

What do you think?

1) Human Linemen are only slow to skill if they spend their lives on the LoS taking the pain. Throw the ball and a Reroll their way and two TD's and you have your first step down the skill path. ANY AG 3 team can do this.
2) True, but Strength access on a Lineman is a dodgy route. Longbeards are already supreme because of this and adding a second lineman to the game with GS will only increase the possiblity of power creep
3) I'd disagree with this. Linemen are superb for their job - the Line. Give them two TD's and they have Block. Then either leave them to skill naturally or go after more TDs with them for further skills. 3 guaranteed SPPs is a lot for carrying the ball across the line and doesn't rely on luck. At least Longbeards have to either wait for their SPPs through blocking or "risk" the 50/50 hand off roll to get those SPPs (denying the Runner/Blitzer the SPPs into the bargain). Sure, you won't see 5 with Block + Guard + Stand Firm by Game 3, but then again you wouldn't expect to see 5 players with 3 skills each by Game 3 on any team but Skaven/Wood Elves!!

If you give Linemen GS access then many players will opt for 40k worth of skill upgrades in Block + Guard which develops a VERY different team dynamic (lots of Block + Guard Linemen, supported by a few Blitzers/Catchers).

At least with the dedicated 0-2 Blocker position you are limiting the possibilities of shifting the team dynamic (from current) to by a maximum of 2 models. And by starting them with Guard will effectively give the Human player the option of two weakened linemen who can't quickly level up (MV 5, AG 2) - so won't break the system - but who complement the team's starting/low to mid TV strength.

Podfrey · Post by **Podfrey** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:28 am

Joemanji wrote:ST 3 catchers is a good change IMO. I had one once in a league and he was very effective.

[sarcasm: on] Really Joe? Let me guess, a Str 5 Wardancer is also very effective too

[sarcasm: off] Str 3 Catchers are a pain no matter the team. Look at any time a Gutter Runner or Skink gets +1 Str. The speed (they already have) enables them to get where they want, and so the Str 3 becomes very useful when they get there. Also consider what happens when one of these new Catchers rolls 6+6 on the improvement table. An 8437 Dodge, Catch player is more than a handful.....

Joemanji wrote:I'm just not feeling AV8 catchers, it just feels counter-intuitive and like a patch.

I think 80K blitzers and 8337 catchers for 80K would make the team pretty competitive, but still not top dogs. I think that's how it should be.

Like a lot of people, AV 8 catchers just doesn't seem right (the models and images all portray a less armoured figure). Str wise, 3 seems OK until you consider the impact of what that enables them to do. This would catapult them forwards a LOT in terms of value on the pitch. Also an 8337 Dodge, Catch player is worth 90k at least and probably more like 110k. Neither way seems right to "fix" the catcher. Hmmm, if "fixing" the catcher is what's needed....

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:58 am

Geoff I'd be interested to hear what you think of my alternative human roster.

prisma · Post by **prisma** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:11 am

lucifer wrote: Also an 8337 Dodge, Catch player is worth 90k at least and probably more like 110k.

I disagree with that.

8 3 4 7 catch = 90k [note: and this is better than 8337 catch dodge.]
8 3 4 7 catch, NOS = 100k
8 3 4 7 block dodge leap = 120k
7 3 3 7 dodge = 70k

ergo:
7 3 3 7 dodge, catch = 80k

-> right price.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:30 am

Its inadvisable to just do straight comparisons of stat lines like that. Positions costs are adjusted to reflect their value to the team they are playing in.

8337 catch, dodge I'd probably price at 90k in a human team. Although that's the same price as the HE catcher human teams are overall cheaper and a bit more resliient so can afford the replacement costs more.

100k would be on the high side, but possible if the team was too good because of them.

bjorn9486 · Post by **bjorn9486** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:47 am

Melipone wrote:How would you incorporate those players into the roster? Totally replacing the 0-4 catchers with the above two players? Just curious as to exactly what you're suggesting.

Sorry, I forgot to mention this part. Yes, bring both catchers and blitzers down to 0-2, o you still have 11 positional max (counting throwers and the Ogre)

katadder · Post by **katadder** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:03 pm

if human catchers were to go to str3 like their high/pro elven counterparts then you need to consider dropping the blitzers to 0-2 as this is what happens with the elf team to make sure they dont end up with 8 blitzers pretty quickly.

Podfrey · Post by **Podfrey** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:42 pm

ianwilliams wrote:Positions costs are adjusted to reflect their value to the team they are playing in.

@ prisma - what he said

If you think that Wardancers are correctly priced as a stand alone player, then you're probably in a group of 1

thechosengobbo · Post by **thechosengobbo** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:45 pm

Why not drop the catchers down to 0-2 and leave the Blitzers at 0-4?

Makes for a real distinction between the Humans and the Elves. It also brings the Humans a little more in line with Amazons (who only have 2 catchers available) and Norse (who favour 'hitting' guys over 'catching' guys), letting all human teams keep closer to each other in theme (alot like the elves).