Alternative Humans

[mattgslater]

If the thinking is Catchers for 60k, I'd prefer Blitzers to stay 90k.
Might make human line ups more varied.

My thinking exactly. Give the Catcher a bennie and be done with it. Don't make it a big bennie, and make it have something to do with money (AV = money in this context).

If you like 80k Blitzers, increase the TRR price to 60k. I wouldn't do that with 60k Catchers, though, as Humans already come out the gate a little too flush.

I still prefer the AV8 avenue, with 80k Blitzers and 60k TRRs. But 60k Catchers and 90k Blitzers means you can start 2 Catchers, a Thrower, 13 players (or 12 and an Apoth or 4th TRR, or a 4th TRR and an Apoth), 3 TRRs, and 4 Blitzers. That's plenty.

[Joemanji]

What's the point in reducing Blitzers to 80K and then upping rerolls to 60K. How is that a boost?

Humans are waaaay short of where (it seems) the majority of coaches think they should be. And where the fluff suggests they should be. Human teams have won more Blood Bowls (fluff only, not 'real' results) than any other race. By far. Humans have 8, Orcs 6, Skaven and DE on 4 and then some on 3.

In LRB5 tournaments Humans are 16th, with only Slann, Chaos and Nurgle behind. I think Slann will overtake them in short order once people work them out. But more importantly perhaps, they are not just 16th. They are a distant 16th. They have a Record of 0.438, 1.5% behind HEs in 15th and 3.6% behind Necros in 15th. Yes, Necros who have been massively boosted in LRB6. At 0.438 Humans are way below of the 45% boundary the BBRC set to scrape into tier 1. And (it seems) most people believe Humans should do more than just scrape in, they should be competitive. Not at the top of tier 1 perhaps, but very firmly in the middle.

The league stats are similar. Record is 0.458, so they just scrape into the BBRC's tier 1. Yet the only teams below them are Necros on 0.448 (only just out of the boundary, yet massively boosted), Vamps, Ogres, Gobbos and Flings. Where's the consistency?

I've played Humans in leagues (LRB4 and 5). I've won with them at low and mid TRs. But at high TRs they were too squishy and too expensive to replace. AG3 and no agility access is a death sentence against certain teams. Hence the price reductions I suggested. Without changing the dynamic of the team at all, you can add a further dimension ... i.e. a strong bench and the abilty to replace key positionals. This in itself will boost the tournament team more than leagues (desirable since they do worse in tournaments). But in leagues it gives a coach the option to play more aggressively. 90K is a lot to find at mid/high TVs even once, let alone regularly. Plus it just feels right ... Humans should be average and disposable.

[mattgslater]

What's the point in reducing Blitzers to 80K and then upping rerolls to 60K. How is that a boost?

80k Blitzers/60k TRRs is essentially a 10k price break on a starting roster, paid back eventually, with a 10k break every time a Blitzer dies or gets cut.

The boost to Necros was a 10k price break on a suboptimal 0-2 player, as is being discussed here. That's about 1/3 as big a deal as a 10k price break on a 0-4 player that everyone loads up on. A TRR price bump, on a team that already pays only 100k for a lino+TRR, is a nice field-leveler: collectively, they're about equal to the price break on the Fleshy.

A 10k price break on a Catcher, or an AV bump on a Catcher, would be similar in impact to the price break on the Fleshy, or maybe actually a tad better.

[Andromidius]

So how about:

Catcher - 90k - 7/3/3/7, Catch, Dodge, Sprint, GA

Similar to the Norse Runner, only lacking Block and gaining Dodge, Sprint and Catch. Would allow for a more bashy team, while still keeping most of its speed and mobility.

Though I imagine alot of people wouldn't be too pleased with the price hike, and others would say the price isn't high enough for a strength boost. Though we could remove Dodge and keep the price the same.

~Andromidius

[Joemanji]

The boost to Necros was a 10k price break on a suboptimal 0-2 player, as is being discussed here.

FGs got a 20K price break, and they are not suboptimal, they are vital to the team structure: they tie people up in the middle and let the faster players hunt and kill with numerical advantage. So that is a 40K break on a starting roster plus 20K every time you need to replace one. You proposed a 10K break on a starting Human roster (3RRs, 4 Blitzers), plus 10K every time you buy a blitzer, -20K when you buy your 4th reroll.

Necros win% fell from LRB4 almost solely because of the change to Claw, and 40K Zombies.

[DoubleSkulls]

I see Geoff's point about not wanting to change the style of Humans. They play the right way IMO, but they just aren't effective. Or not as effective as they should be.

But my point is I want to change the way the team plays. I want the passing niche to be occupied by 'zons and Humans to be a little more bash orientated.

Everything I'm hearing here is that 7337 catchers do that.

Andromidius - that sort of change is something I'd happily consider if the team was overperforming.

[mattgslater]

I see Geoff's point about not wanting to change the style of Humans. They play the right way IMO, but they just aren't effective. Or not as effective as they should be.

But my point is I want to change the way the team plays. I want the passing niche to be occupied by 'zons and Humans to be a little more bash orientated.

Everything I'm hearing here is that 7337 catchers do that.

Andromidius - that sort of change is something I'd happily consider if the team was overperforming.

That's that. Even so, whoever suggested AV8 Catchers, thanks! More than one person got what they wanted from this discussion, and it wasn't all the same thing.

[frogbear]

...my point is I want to change the way the team plays. I want the passing niche to be occupied by 'zons and Humans to be a little more bash orientated.

I am still wary about this, however if this positional forms a half job between a catcher and a runner would we consider changing the naming convention for this positional to be 'Reciever'. Catcher brings up the throwing aspect and runner brings up the grind. I think 'Reciever' is a nice balance where they can play either and would suit the Human's place in the game.

For the record, I still like the blockers aspect.

[Jural]

If we were re-designing humans without worrying about models, I think a 2 blocker, 4 blitzer, 2 catcher, 2 thrower line-up would be ideal, with no Ogre.

[DoubleSkulls]

Even so, whoever suggested AV8 Catchers, thanks!

Al the Trowel I think suggested it and its a good idea.

If you want to get Humans into the top 6 though I don't think it would be enough and you'd need to look at 80k Blitzers. Maybe as well as or instead of.

[mattgslater]

I think you'd be surprised how big a difference AV8 70k Catchers would make.

[Jural]

I'm never convinced 10k tweaks do all that much unless it's on a linemen piece, but I will say that if you get AV 8, 70k catchers + 80k blitzers it would be a pretty big deal.

2 Catchers become a no brainer, and you get 40k extra to spend on your team. The Ogre + catcher line-up is doable, as is the 13th man, or the 12 men + apoth.

But... does it really make the team much better past TV 1,200,000 or thereabouts? Cash flow is improved, but is that's what's dragging down human teams?

[Podfrey]

I see Geoff's point about not wanting to change the style of Humans. They play the right way IMO, but they just aren't effective. Or not as effective as they should be.

But my point is I want to change the way the team plays. I want the passing niche to be occupied by 'zons and Humans to be a little more bash orientated.

Well that's where we differ Ian. I see Amazons as the less glamorous "Bolton Wanderers" of the game; fairly solid, tough to break down and capable of pulling off the odd flare. Humans on the other hand are the "Man Utd/Arsenal/Liverpool" of the game; fast, diverse and full of flare, able to open up any weakness in the opposition and pounce on it. Blitzers are your Steven Gerrards (fast, hard hitting) and Catchers your Christiano Ronaldos (even faster, but prone to bouts of grass hugging after intervention from the opposition).

Can you tell me, is it just you that wants to change the way Humans and Amazons work as a team, or is it the BBRC as a whole? And why? If it's "to make them better" then why not do just that - fix what's wrong (missing a Blocker) rather than reinvent two existing wheels that work reasonably well already.

The way you're going is, IMO, counter intuitive to the rest of the game. Wood Elves and Skaven are supposed to be the two "quick" teams, characterised by MV 7 Linemen. The proposed Humans, fielding eight MV 7 players, an Ogre and only two MV 6 would then be almost as fast as them and faster than lots of other teams out there. The current MV 8 CAN be make them a quick team, but doing so comes at an opportinty cost/trade off of ST 2. So they can be quick when they want, or less quick and more solid.

Having the tactical flexibility to change who/what is fielded should be the flexibility that is the Humans strength (no other team does this!) not having an operational flexibility i.e. having 8 x MV 7, ST 3 players who are fielded every drive and then are flexible in what they do on the pitch.

[DoubleSkulls]

I see Amazons as the less glamorous "Bolton Wanderers" of the game; fairly solid, tough to break down and capable of pulling off the odd flare. Humans on the other hand are the "Man Utd/Arsenal/Liverpool" of the game; fast, diverse and full of flare, able to open up any weakness in the opposition and pounce on it. Blitzers are your Steven Gerrards (fast, hard hitting) and Catchers your Christiano Ronaldos (even faster, but prone to bouts of grass hugging after intervention from the opposition).

I think that's sort of where they are - but for me that's not where they should be. Given there are no plans for LRB7 its possible these would never even become official rules or get put to a BBRC review.

I don't think you really need to worry about these rosters being official any time soon. My expectation would be something like 3~5 years before the next set of official rules changes. Plenty of time to experiment & play test.

For me they ought to be so that 'zons are comparatively lightly armoured, fast, nimble and quite as good in a stand up fight. For me this is a weakness in Chet's original "6337 Dodge" design which I want to correct. The current 'zon team is fine - but it does not fit what I want the team to be.

Making 'zons into that faster, passing oriented team I also feels crowds humans - which I think need to be a bit more bashy anyway. So a 7337 catcher retains their ability to play a passing game and gives them better options for developing the team to be more balanced.

I take the point about eight 733x players on the pitch. Maybe that is too much - but the average speed of the human team is going to be the same since you are swapping two 8237s and two 6338s for four 7337s. The peak speed of the team (which is often much more important IMO) is dropped - so effectively making the team slower.

[PubBowler]

If the thinking is Catchers for 60k, I'd prefer Blitzers to stay 90k.
Might make human line ups more varied.

Why? You still will have ST 2 AV 7 guys, so the probability of potting more than 2 on the field at a time is slim. With 60k catchers, you can just afford to buy them back more easily, it doesn't solve the human problem.

I would prefer AV8 Catchers at 70k.

But 60k Catchers with 80k Blitzers were suggested and I disagreed.

I don't think the problem with humans is that they're too expensive.
They do struggle at tournies more than leagues but I think that might be because good coaches who want a win don't take them very often and rookie coaches do because they're in WFB and the box.

Catchers are the piece that seem to be the weak link of the current players (whether you think a Blocker piece is required).

Reducing the price makes them more of a throw away piece.
One you can gamble with.
One that you can have on your bench against some teams and throw on to the field against others.

But I would prefer AV8 70k catchers.