Hypnotic Gaze

[Grumbledook]

smeborg +1

admittedly i've never hit someone I've already gazed iirc
let alone someone who also had sidestep

[Jural]

The rule only mentions voluntary movement. When you are pushed back, the movement is involuntary, I think we would all agree. So certainly a hypno-gazed player can be pushed!

The confusion seems to come in on Side Step because the player is choosing which square he moves to. However, by my interpretation, the player doesn't choose to move, he just chooses where the movement takes him. But the fact that he will move is not voluntary- he can not choose to stay in his square!

It's definitely confusing though.

[Grumbledook]

staying in your square isn't movement at all ;]

[Smeborg]

Thanks, Grum, for your kind words.

I have not played Vampires for any length of time (yet), so the situation has not arisen in any of my games. However, I am league commish and tournament organiser, so there is at least a real chance that the ruling might become "live" for me.

I'm becoming more and more interested in this thread, not only for the rule itself, but as a way of understanding how other coaches and commishes (not to mention the BBRC) solve a rules issue.

I am a fan of the BBRC (perhaps one of their greatest fans). I like the way they go about their business. But I tend to prefer rules interpretations which follow a common sense interpretation of the wording - rules as "the man on the Clapham omnibus'' might read them. Perhaps this is such an instance.

All the best.

[thechosengobbo]

Thanks, Grum, for your kind words.

I'll bet that's not said often

I can see exactly where you're coming from Smeborg. I'd tend to agree myself (it seems to fit the spirit, and it won't exactly break Vamps).

But then again, I know that two players are from my league are on this forum, and they'll want to go with the 'official' version as said by Ian...

[Jural]

staying in your square isn't movement at all ;]

Exactly! And that option is not available to the Side Stepper... He MUST move. So it's involuntary.

(choosing the square you are forced into is not the same as volunteering to leave the square you are in!)

[stashman]

Hmmm... Intresting that we all interpret the rules diffrent.

Then I think we have the same issue about Bonehead and Really Stupid:

Bonehead
... The player loses his tackle
zones and may not catch, intercept or pass, assist another player on a
block or foul, or voluntarily move until he manages to roll a 2 or better at
the start of a future Action or the drive ends.

Really Stupid
... The player loses his tackle zones and may not catch, intercept or
pass the ball, assist another player on a block or foul, or voluntarily move
until he manages to
roll a successful result
for a Really Stupid roll
at the start of a future
Action or the drive

So in both, or all three cases you can still use skills like side step step.

And the answer to why I wanna block a gazed player is when I need a chainpush to sneak a square with my other player

E D I T :

Take Root (Extraordinary)
Immediately after declaring an Action with this player, roll a D6. On a 2 or
more, the player may take his Action as normal. On a 1, the player “takes
root”, and his MA is considered 0 until a drive ends, or he is Knocked
Down or Placed Prone (and no, players from his own team may not try
and block him in order to try to knock him down!). A player that has taken
root may not Go For It, be pushed back for any reason, or use any skill
that would allow him to move out of his current square or be Placed
Prone. The player may block adjacent players without following-up as
part of a Block Action however if a player fails his Take Root roll as part
of a Blitz Action he may not block that turn (he can still roll to stand up if
he is Prone).

In this case not even Juggernaut skill can move a rooted treeman or if the treeman has Wrestle* skill, he cannot use it (even if he should have it ).

Rules as written.

Wrestle* (General)
The player is specially trained in grappling techniques. This player may
use Wrestle when he blocks or is blocked and a ‘Both Down’ result on
the Block dice is chosen by either coach. Instead of applying the 'Both
Down' result, both players are wrestled to the ground. Both players are
Placed Prone in their respective squares even if one or both have the
Block skill. Do not make Armour rolls for either player. Use of this skill
does not cause a turnover unless the active player was holding the ball.

Okey: Rules as written: If a blocking rooted treeman gets both down, what happens! He cannot fall prone, but it's still not a turn over as it's written...

[Jural]

The Take Root skill forbids the USE of skills which place him prone. So a Wrestle Treeman who rolled both down, or had it rolled against him, would be UNABLE to use the skill.

So unless you have a treeman model dressed in Spandex, don't choose wrestle

[stashman]

The Take Root skill forbids the USE of skills which place him prone. So a Wrestle Treeman who rolled both down, or had it rolled against him, would be UNABLE to use the skill.

So unless you have a treeman model dressed in Spandex, don't choose wrestle

But if he is rooted, then the opponent can't Wrestle him down either, and what happens then?

Opponent have wrestle, treeman has block. Opponent gets "both down". he tries to use his wrestle skill, but the rooted treeman won't go down.

Will this make the treeman knock down the wrestling opponent if he has block???

Intresting!

[Spieroz]

The treeman could be wrestled down by his opponent. The wording for take root says that the treeman may not use any skill that would allow him to go prone, not that a skill can't make him go prone.

[DoubleSkulls]

Spieroz is correct. The tree can't use wrestle, so falls down in a turnover. He can be wrestled down by his opponent since that isn't his choice.

Smeborg - I can see where you are coming from. However if you want a realism argument then if anything HG should probably end when you are blocked - being tackled would probably wake you from the daze!

[Smeborg]

Ian - I am not arguing on the basis of "realism" or even on the basis of "the spirit of the rules". I apologise if my earlier posts on this thread have led you to believe this. I am arguing solely on the basis of the literal and common sense wording of the rules as they currently stand.

My argument rests on 2 specific issues:

(a) The meaning of "move voluntarily" in the HG rule in relation to Sidestep. I would argue that since Sidestep involves intent on the part of the sidestepping player, ipso facto it is voluntary movement.

(b) Whether or not "move voluntarily" in the HG rule is intended as general or specific wording. I would argue that it intended generally, and that it is intended to exclude all forms of voluntary movement outside of a player's action, including, for example, Sidestep, Pass Block and Shadowing. A further argument in support of this interpretation is that if the writer of the rule had intended for Pass Block and Shadowing to be disallowed, but for Sidestep to be allowed, then the rule would have been worded accordingly in a skill-specific way, rather than in a general way.

Now I can understand that you, the BBRC, or any of its members, can wish a rule to be interpreted in a particular way because it is cleaner, neater, or more consistent from a rules point of view. But that's not the same as interpreting the rules as written in a simple and straightforward way. I suspect this is such an instance.

And if you interpretation is, or is to become, official, may I suggest that the HG skill description be amended to be skill-specific (since it appears that only 2 skills are affected by it)?

All the best.

[Caelwyn]

Wait, so technically, while hypno-gazed and in a push back you are not moving voluntarily but are forced to be pushed somewhere so you can elect to use sidestep.

But in a doubledown result where you are forced to the ground, a treeman can't elect to use wrestle because it would take him to the ground.

How is that consistent?

[Jural]

(a) The meaning of "move voluntarily" in the HG rule in relation to Sidestep. I would argue that since Sidestep involves intent on the part of the sidestepping player, ipso facto it is voluntary movement.

So if the government seizes your family and forces you to pay a fine, but you can choose whether to pay it by cash, check, or credit card, you have voluntarily chosen to pay the fine?

I would say no, you have chosen the method to pay your fine. And in the case of side step, you haven't elected to move, you have elected where to move to.

And there I see your point...

Movement can be defined as changing location, which in terms of Blood Bowl always couples a starting location and a final location, as well as an operation. In EVERY situation in Blood Bowl, voluntary movement gives you control over all aspects of the movement, involuntary does not.

So I interpret it differently... but it needs clarification. I bet it's only the rarity of the Hypnotic Gaze + Side Step combo which makes this not a more frequently asked question.

[zephard]

I bet it's only the rarity of the Hypnotic Gaze + Side Step combo which makes this not a more frequently asked question.

Yeap, not a lot of people hitting Side Stepping tackle zoneless Ogres.