Ideas for buffing gobbos - part 4: proposal

[plasmoid]

Hi Joe,
>They get Claw in lieu of Razor Sharp Fangs ... as did all players. They
>are essentially one massive mouth full of razor sharp teeth.
As did all existing players. Big difference.
And notice how you said a mouth full of razor sharp teeth, not claws

But hey, as I said, I'd consider claw.

>I know there is a temptation to overdesribe ... but Squigs don't have to
>Leap. Just giving them A access is enough IMO, so that it's a clear
>development path.

IMO, if they get A-access, I don't think they'll develop into leapers.

>Dont like ST access on them. It makes MB, Guard, PO too obvious.
True. Then again I think squigs need to have at least the ability to become deadly.

IMO they should be Claw + A access.
or no claw but AS access.

And Mattgslater - I'm not worried about the double negaskills. IMO, if it isn't obvious what you're rolling for, then the roll never counts.

Cheers
Martin

[mattgslater]

I know there is a temptation to overdesribe ... but Squigs don't have to Leap. Just giving them A access is enough IMO, so that it's a clear development path.

See, I'd never ever consider the idea of giving this piece Leap if he didn't come with it. Not in a million years. I've never seen a coach take Leap on an AG3 player (though there was a thread about someone having done so on this site once-upon-a-time). Generally speaking, 4+ rolls are horrifying, and no sane person would burn a valuable Star Player roll getting the capacity to do something that crazy risky with a valued positional. But under the right circumstances, if a guy already has a skill that lets him take a 4+ roll, it might not be so bad.

@ Martin: I think S skills are very in-character on a Squig: Squigs are ST5 in WFB, and absolutely should be encouraged to become killers (especially bc if you start with MB, you have a super-unreliable Superman for awhile, which is just right on a Gob team). It also keeps Squigs in Squiggy skills: otherwise, they'll load up on Side Step and Diving Tackle, which just doesn't seem Squiggy to me. I also think they need Frenzy to discourage Guard and push Juggernaut.

What about this?
5/4/3/7 Frenzy, Leap, No Hands, Piling On, Wild Animal AS/GM 90k

Essentially AV7 functions as an anti-skill here. You're scared to blitz with him, as he can't get Block or Wrestle. You're scared to Leap, as he has about a 9% chance of getting carted off the field if you have no TRR (half that if you have a TRR... still about as scary as a Human Blitzer getting hit straight-up by a BOB). He has to follow up, but he can't take a hit. But ST4/Frenzy/Leap/PO has to make any opponent queasy. Without PO, he should probably cost less... 80k? Or even better, if you don't like PO, make him AV8, and maybe stick him at 100k. You can make "bad deal" an alternative anti-skill if he has Leap and Frenzy, as Frenzy penalizes expensive players without Block (the classic criticism of rookie Witch Elves, Rat Ogres, Minotaurs and Ulfs), and Leap + high price + AG3 = iffy.

And because it would be nothing-but-fluff, I really think the Squig shouldn't have P on doubles. What P skill would you give a Squig?

[Joemanji]

See, I'd never ever consider the idea of giving this piece Leap if he didn't come with it. Not in a million years. I've never seen a coach take Leap on an AG3 player ...

ST4 is the difference. Is there another ST4/AG3 player in the game with AG access on normal rolls? Vampires have HypnoGaze so have no need for risky leaps, and need Block, Dodge etc more. Chaos Warriors need a double and would be waaaaay better off using it on a Mutation. So by having a ST4 piece with only A access you are clearly directing Squigs down a path. That said, Dodge, SS & DT are probably better as you mention, but heck ... Gobbo coaches are crazy. 4+ with a reroll aint so bad if you are getting a 2D frenzied block on a ball carrier in return. I'm coming around to Leap to start though.

[Tripleskull]

I've never seen a coach take Leap on an AG3 player (though there was a thread about someone having done so on this site once-upon-a-time).

http://www.midgardbb.com/MBBL/teamView.php?teamid=970

This skill is a couple of hours old. I admit it is far from the best first skill, but I think its the most important double on beastmen, so I took it for long term planing.

[DoubleSkulls]

For me Squigs are strong, vicious space hoppers gone mad. Bouncing (i.e. leaping) is a huge part of the appeal and I wouldn't want them without it.

Nor would I want them without some damaging skill - Claw feels a better fit than MB.

After that its all about balancing for me.

I want leaping to be fairly reliable for them - so 3+. That means either VLL & AG3 or AG4. With No Hands then the difference is their dodging ability.

4+ leaps - AG3 without VLL just doesn't feel like it would be used much and I want bouncing to be a relatively common play with them.

[mattgslater]

I've never seen a coach take Leap on an AG3 player (though there was a thread about someone having done so on this site once-upon-a-time).

http://www.midgardbb.com/MBBL/teamView.php?teamid=970

This skill is a couple of hours old. I admit it is far from the best first skill, but I think its the most important double on beastmen, so I took it for long term planing.

Yeah. You put it on the guy who can make it 3+ with a normal skill.

[mattgslater]

For me Squigs are strong, vicious space hoppers gone mad. Bouncing (i.e. leaping) is a huge part of the appeal and I wouldn't want them without it.

Nor would I want them without some damaging skill - Claw feels a better fit than MB.

After that its all about balancing for me.

I want leaping to be fairly reliable for them - so 3+. That means either VLL & AG3 or AG4. With No Hands then the difference is their dodging ability.

4+ leaps - AG3 without VLL just doesn't feel like it would be used much and I want bouncing to be a relatively common play with them.

Cool. I agree that Claw is less out-of-place than MB, as he's not a big guy. Again, what about PO? It speaks to their all-out savagery, and to the physical limitations of moving with a mouthful of football player.

3+ Leap on ST4 is humongous. Moreover, WA Squigs should have Frenzy, really. If you're going to do that, Loner is critical (as someone with experience running big guys with and without Loner, I can attest to the power of Loner on a player with a 2+ anti-skill, especially on a team that can afford a lot of TRRs). Otherwise, 3+ Leap and a ST4 Blitz (let alone a Frenzy ST4 Blitz) with a TRR option is really outrageous. But with Loner and no G access, 4/4 Frenzy Leap isn't nearly as good as it looks on paper. If you're going to do this, AG4 has more-or-less the same effect as VLL, and takes 3 fewer words and 1 less stretch of the imagination.

Hmm... as an alternative to Loner, what about changing the Squig's access to S/AM? That is, no Block or Wrestle or whatever, no matter what?

[Glowworm]

You all seem pretty set on squigs in one form or another so this may be a little late however..........

my main problem with Gobbo's is running out of players (maybe Im just a bad gobbo coach) I mean they injure themselves failing dodge rolls (& re-rolls) they blow themselves up, fall on chainsaws and get eaten by team mates (all this before the opposing team gets a shot at them)

Could we not give the little guys Re-gen? they dont play badly overall, the SW and Trolls make them a least a little competetive.

I believe (Fluff wise) that Grom the Paunch had Re-Gen after eating uncooked Troll flesh and he was one of the most feared goblin warlord of all time....

Seems a little odd but thats my thoughts, no spend on new models for squigs (its a league thing after all not a country wide rule) No new rules or stat/cost increases & it combats the major flaw in thier playing style, while you have enough players you can (with a bit of luck and DP) keep up with the opposition, once you run short it gets bad very quickly.....

Just my thoughts, feel free to rip up & disregard

[DoubleSkulls]

The '07 review went in a similar direction - allowing stars & mercs in excess of the limit of 16. You could just allow Halflings & Goblins 20 players on their rosters instead of 16. That would give them an appreciable boost since running out of players would be less of a problem.

I don't like the regen option though, since with the exception of Grom - who was a special character - there aren't other examples of regenerating goblins.

[DoubleSkulls]

3+ Leap and a ST4 Blitz (let alone a Frenzy ST4 Blitz) with a TRR option is really outrageous. But with Loner and no G access, 4/4 Frenzy Leap isn't nearly as good as it looks on paper.

I think I preferred the RS & WA option. With a reroll that's only a 7% chance of failing and burning the reroll, 23% chance of succeeding but using a reroll, and 69% chance of succeeding without needing the reroll.

That makes a 3+ leap followed by a 2 dice (if you can cancel assists) block without Block or Wrestle reasonably risky - plus this isn't a war dancer with the speed to reach.

3+ leap with loner works for me too.

[plasmoid]

Hi Glowworm,
the problem with your suggestion is that goblins don't regenerate.

But the team would be stronger against depletion with a few more tough guys for the LOS.
Orc linemen have been suggested.
More trolls have been suggested.
And AV8 squigs is also being discussed.

So those might be options for you.
I'll open the poll tomorrow.
Cheers
Martin

[Joemanji]

The simplist option to make them win more would be Catchers. In 2nd ed they had 0-4 catchers with +1MA, +1AG and Catch. Maybe the AG would be too much, but MA7 + Catch would be an appreciable boost.

3+ leap with loner works for me too.

3+ leap = never used. I probably wouldn't even block with a Loner ST4/Frenzy player.

[Tripleskull]

I've never seen a coach take Leap on an AG3 player (though there was a thread about someone having done so on this site once-upon-a-time).

http://www.midgardbb.com/MBBL/teamView.php?teamid=970

This skill is a couple of hours old. I admit it is far from the best first skill, but I think its the most important double on beastmen, so I took it for long term planing.

Yeah. You put it on the guy who can make it 3+ with a normal skill.

Im gonna give him wrestle and maby also tackle before long legs, so 3+ is pretty far off.

[plasmoid]

Hi guys,
my take on the 2 issues:

1) claws?
I really don't care whether they have claw or not. But I remember the words of a gobbo coach here recently, who said that he didn't really want the gobbo team much bashier - because they can be quite deadly as is.
So - if they start with a bash skill, IMO either claw or piling on (and as I'm not much for proxy skills, I guess PO is quite OK), then they should not have the S-access that will make them easily combo-up.

So, either a bashy skill and A only.
Or no bashy skill, but access to SA.

2) The leaping
Not too bothered really. There are plenty of non-bouncy squigs AFAIK. So they don't have to have it. But if they get it, I don't care much whether it's 3+ or 4+, as long as the overall piece is balanced. I just can't see them agile as an elf. And they don't have very long legs. So I guess it's 4+ for me, because they other options aren't very squiggly.

Cheers
Martin

[Joemanji]

I think Leap + VLL is investing too much in what is essentially a gimmick. I think everyone agrees they should have Mutations access on doubles, so leaving VLL as a possible improvement roll seems fine.

I agree with Martin that damage skill and A access OR no damage skill and AS access feels right.

However Piling On is just wrong for me on a WA. You do not want a WA going over when he needs a 4+ to get back up. Giving a player like this so many suboptimal skills is not going to help Goblins at all IMO. Frenzy + Leap + Piling On + WA is just a disaster. You are paying for skills there that all work against the nature of each other.