Can Big Guys use Cheering Fans?

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 4:51 pm

The title pretty much says it all. Are Big Guys able to use Cheering Fans and Brilliant Coaching rerolls? The 2003 rules preview lets them use Trophy and Leader rerolls, so I would probably say yes - but clarification would be very nice.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 5:15 pm

Skummy wrote:The title pretty much says it all. Are Big Guys able to use Cheering Fans and Brilliant Coaching rerolls? The 2003 rules preview lets them use Trophy and Leader rerolls, so I would probably say yes - but clarification would be very nice.

No because both of these rolls simply increase the number of team rerolls. They are not special rerolls at all.

Galak

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 6:03 pm

Ah-

This makes sense.

rwould · Post by **rwould** » Sun Dec 29, 2002 11:01 pm

Hi

I'd have to say it doesn't make sense.

The LRB is quite explicit in that Leader re-rolls and Trophy re-rolls cannot be used for Big Guys (it states for both that they work in exactly the same way as team re-rolls) so this change is not a clarification, but a rules change. (as you can probably guess I also disagree with it!).

And so if you are allowing a particular re-roll to make changes as it is of the opinion that it fits in with the fluff better, then the re-rolls allowed by the kick-off table are not specified as a type of re-roll (as by the definition above under the LRB it doesn't matter as they all the types defined follow exactly the same rules as team re-rolls), Therefore why not call them fan re-rolls and they will allow the roll to be changed.

I am surprised this was not addressed before.

Richard

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Sun Dec 29, 2002 11:11 pm

BBRC 2002 review says wrote:Q: Can Big Guys use non-Team Re-rolls, such as Leader re-rolls and trophy re-rolls?
A: Yes. Even though trophy and Leader re-rolls function like Team Re-rolls in most respects, they are separate. Big Guys can benefit from being on a winning team or being in the presence of a Leader, just like any other player can

So the LRB does/will say this, or the 2003 Annual or both.

Oderus Orungus · Post by **Oderus Orungus** » Sun Dec 29, 2002 11:16 pm

Leader skill gives the team a leader re-roll not a team re-roll and the big guy skill says they can't use team re-rolls. The kickoff table states that the team gets an extra re-roll, and does not specify what kind of re-roll.
trophy re-rolls are trophy re-rolls, not used in the same way as team re-rolls. So far it looks like everyone made some mistakes, err interpertations of the rules to the way they like em. Big guys can't use team re-rolls but any other kind.

rwould · Post by **rwould** » Sun Dec 29, 2002 11:26 pm

I've got no issue with it now being that non team re-rolls can now be used for big guys (other than I disagree with it!). What I take issue with is

(1) The rulebook clearly states that they currently cannot. The clarifications state they can. It is not a clarification; it is a change of rules. The current LRB stands the same as before. I think the rulebook needs changing for this; not it being mentioned in a clarification. I am not a fan of long lists of clarifications (if any of you have ever played Phil Barkers rules for Ancients you will know what I mean!); they end up being used as rules when what should be done is the rulebook written clearly to state the position.

(2) The answer to the question on this about the kick-off table additional re-rolls not being usable for big guys. To be consistent with the 'clarification' on leader and trophy re-rolls these should be allowed to grant big guys re-roll opportunities. They are (to invent a name for them) kick-off re-rolls. The LRB does not specify them as team re-rolls.

And as the re-roll change is a clarification it does not mean amending the rulebook until that bit gets amended. It does however lead to consistency in terms of how it is applied.

Hope that made sense!

Richard

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Sun Dec 29, 2002 11:38 pm

It's another one of those "intereptations due to bad wording" things again. The Big Guy rules state (and have stated) that they can't use "Team Re-rolls", and "Leader" and "Trophy" re-rolls aren't "Team", but I can see were people might think they are. However, having read the kick-off table results again, I think you are correct in that these 2 re-rolls could be argued for not being "team" re-rolls either, so therefore usable by big guys. If they intend for them not to be used byBG's they need to change the entries to say "extra team re-roll", rather than just "extra re-roll".

Ah well, one day it might be consistently worded.

slackman · Post by **slackman** » Mon Dec 30, 2002 12:35 am

i feel its time to interject here. back in the old 3e days, there were no big guys, and there was no deathzone either. the cards printed didnt specify the type of RR you got from kickoff results because there were no other types of RRs. then deathzone came out, and with it, many new skills including leader. the introduction of the major tournaments brought the trophy rerolls. still no mention of big guys. the text of the cards, and the wording in the rulebooks were never updated after big guys were introduced, it was just one of the many minor details overlooked. but in order to determine what RRs, if any, the big guys should be able to use, one must consult what each RR represents....

the leader RR represents the ability of one player to inspire his teammates to play better. trophy RRs, i would imagine, represent a similar effect, only relating to the prestige of being on a championship team. both of these cases represent something entirely different than team RRs, which relate to practice. for this reason, team RRs are specifically denied for use by big guys, while the trophy and leader RRs can be used. the pro skill is available to the big guy under the same vein. since that particular player has become a seasoned player, they perform slightly better.

but on to the case of the two kickoff table rerolls. i had always assumed they simply are additional team RRs. although not mentioned in the cards, for reasons stated above, it just seems logical to treat them that way. before deathzone and the leader skill and trophy RRs, there was only one type of RR, and i assumed the kickoff table would mean you get one of those, not a new, special type. after deathzone, leader skill, and trophy RRs, i believe the same. they are team rerolls, not a new special type. although in the future it would be nice to see a specific wording one way or another. guess what folks, that's exactly the reason we have rules reviews. they are there to clarify things that aren't worded as well as they might have been, were the writers given the benefit of hindsight.

but if thats not good enough for you, let's look at each of the kickoff RRs, and why they shouldn't be allowed for use by big guys, even if you do introduce the idea of a "kickoff" reroll. on a 9, brilliant coaching. this one is rather obvious. if they're not paying attention during practice (mentioned in the fluff as to why they have the trait "big guy" and cannot use team RRs) surely they're not paying any more attention now. all the coaches yelling and screaming at them now shouldnt make a damn bit of difference, and they should not be able to use this RR. on a 5, cheering fans. now i can see the arguement here. the prestige of the team causes them to perform slightly better, through trophy RRs. and having a leader on the pitch inspires the other players to perform better. having the crowd worked into a frenzy also inspires players to perform better. but guess what, big guys dont care about the fans. they dont care about winning. they dont care about their coaches. they dont care about anything but smashing the other team. so here we see that even if you do decide to treat the RRs gained by the kickoff table results as seperate entities, they still should not be allowed to be used by big guys.

to be quite honest, im not particularly keen on trophy and leader RRs being used by big guys, but i understand the reasons why. i also think i have a pretty good idea of why the kickoff table RRs shouldnt apply.

slackman 42

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Mon Dec 30, 2002 12:39 am

I agree that BG's shouldn't be allowed to use the kickoff RR's, just saying there's enough room in the wording to make it agrueable that they can.

Maybe Galak hould start a list for the BBRC 2003 review

slackman · Post by **slackman** » Mon Dec 30, 2002 12:47 am

but thats just it. the wording doesnt allow this kind of beardiness. coaching is coaching is coaching is coaching. this is why they cant use team RRs, so they cant use this either. my point wasnt, "no they cant use these, this is why" my point was, "had they know from the beginning every single thing to be added to the game, they would have worded things better to correlate to all those new, yet to be introduced things and there would be ablsolutely no need for rules reviews." point number two was "no they cant use these, this is why."

slackman 42

rwould · Post by **rwould** » Mon Dec 30, 2002 7:11 pm

Fluffwise you can write something to justify pretty much anything in the game. To be consistent with the clarification the re-rolls should count; both can be justified in the same manner as leader and trophy re-rolls.

Now if it is going to be ruled that big guys can use the other types of re-rolls (which as I've said, goes against the rulebook) there is insufficient justification to not allow them to use the kick-off re-rolls.

In my opinion the beardiness is allowing any re-rolls to be used by big guys. That was a bad call. And I am not a fan of clarifications as they often cause as many problems as they solve.

BTW, I have written rules myself so I am aware of the difficulty of it!

Richard

Milo · Post by **Milo** » Mon Dec 30, 2002 7:27 pm

For right now, I'd suggest not allowing brilliant coaching or cheering fans re-rolls to be used for big guys. I don't believe that it was our intent to allow them for Big Guy use, even though we didn't specifically mention them when we clarified the trophy and leader re-rolls. Keep in mind that these re-rolls use the same "team re-roll" counters as normal team re-rolls, not the specialized "leader" re-roll or trophy markers that those two specific types do. We'll bring it up and discuss the ruling, but I'm pretty certain that's the way the rest of the committee will call it.

Milo

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Mon Dec 30, 2002 7:34 pm

Again, I appreciate the demi-official ruling on this.

I'm apparently on the wrong side of the pond,

so could somebody give me a literal definition of "beardiness"? From context I assume it is a special kind of rules lawyering, but as I am currently growing a beard, I'd like to know for sure...

slackman · Post by **slackman** » Mon Dec 30, 2002 9:49 pm

beardy.... hmmm.... not quite sure when/where i first heard this being used, but yes, it applies to someone twisting the wording (or lack thereof) of a rule to suit a purpose that is widely accepted to be against the spirit of the ruling. the first instance of its use probably involved dwarves....

slackman 42

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