6+4 on a Pro Elf lino (edited the title)

[Old Man Draco]

I know you are confused. You try to catch elephants, get a 6+4 in the title and a 6+5 in the post.

You want to talk about it?

Anyways, block you can always get on a normal skill. With MA 7 this lino would be an extra potential scorer in two turns. Or fast to get back in defence.

Block or wrestle for the NEXT skills would improve the offence as well as the defense.

Take the movement. Speed is everything.

[mubo]

Not sure the you need the move.... you have blitzers and catchers. Dodge will give you that extra mobility, often means you can go through rather than around TZs, plus makes you harder to knock down.

I was talking rubbish before, AV is a poor choice. 6348 is not worth 90k. Essentially you can choose a woodie or a delf lineman with a 20k premium... If you have a role for the player might be worth it, but otherwise I'd go for dodge. Definitely not SS...

Also depends on how close you are to buying a new catcher.

[JaM]

It's probably all this polo-shirt printing business coupled with a 1 yr old daughter, a busy life in the classroom, and a new home that's going to my head...

I'll take the movement then if you say it's important .

btw, I have 50K in cash at the moment, it's either another thrower or a catcher for me after the next 1-2 games (I hope).


Draco, I'll email you about the other problems

Thanks all,

JaM

[mattgslater]

Yes, I've seen you say that before, but I will be facing 4 Black Orcs sometime soon. Surely, NOT getting knocked down vs "choosing where you land with AV 7" is better ?
because, to me, the Sidestep is a passive skill. Unless they hit you, you wont use it. Where block is useful in hitting, and getting hit...

Getting hit once with nothing is better than getting hit twice with Block or Dodge. (1/4 vs. 16/81) For a linebacker, I agree that Block, Dodge or Wrestle will spare your guy better than SS will, but on the line where the opponent can stack up to chain-block, SS is huge. If you're primarily worried about non-Block opposition, though, Dodge is better. Say, if you're facing a lot of Chaos, Lizards, Nurgle, Slann, or Pact....

SS vs. MA, though, I think depends on whether or not you'll soon get to 3 Catchers. At optimal development, with a Kicker and 3 Catchers on the field, you'll only have room for 5 more linos or 4 and a Thrower, and all of them will have to be geared up to take hits, either as inside LBs or on the LOS. A SS nose tackle can save your inside LBs or force your opponents to burn actions covering for him.

[PubBowler]

Getting hit once with nothing is better than getting hit twice with Block or Dodge. (1/4 vs. 16/81)

I'm not what situation corresponds to this maths.
Not least because there are a lot of variables depending on attacker skills.

But I can guess it requires your opponent to commit at least 2x as many players to the LOS to get it the 2nd scenario to work.

That's a pretty risky strategy.

[mattgslater]

Getting hit once with nothing is better than getting hit twice with Block or Dodge. (1/4 vs. 16/81)

I'm not what situation corresponds to this maths.
Not least because there are a lot of variables depending on attacker skills.

But I can guess it requires your opponent to commit at least 2x as many players to the LOS to get it the 2nd scenario to work.

That's a pretty risky strategy.

5/9 to KD from a guy with Block against a guy with one skill, x 5/9 to KD for the next guy in the chain = 65/81 on two blocks. I'm assuming that the average non-SS'er is open to two hits off the LOS. Yeah, sometimes it's 1, 3 or 4, but figure 6 guys will be open to hit 3. With no skills, it's 3/4 to KD, but with SS, there's no chain. If the attacker doesn't have Block, then Block and Wrestle have negligible defensive value, but Dodge is better, reducing the knockdown odds to 671/1296, about 51.4%, vs. 55.6% for SS... unless the chain-push opens up 3d on the second attempt against Dodge-boy.... Yeah, this might save your opponent an action, but it'll be a big disappointment to him if he does, 'cause he'd probably rather block than move.

Stacked O-line against PEs risky? Only if you can't keep up your numbers. The rule is "never stack the D-line," but that doesn't go the other way. Against low-AV teams, I always figured stacking the line on offense was default, especially for bash. On offense against PEs, you generally need to get the cage going as fast as possible in the place that will give you the most possible options to flow in different directions (fighting PEs off in your backfield: that's risky). Stacking the LOS on offense is a great way to start your cage, and ensures you'll get that critical 3 KDs without using your blitz. Now, you really need those 4 or 5 guys in the backfield and WZs, so it's different when down men, but if you have 11 Orcs, you're going to be thinking about knocking down some elves and building a cage in the middle of the field, so you can grind whichever way you need until you score. A noseguard with SS makes that plan a lot harder.

Note also that a SS nose-tackle prevents silly chain-push games, which really matters when faced up against Frenzy/Guard happy teams. No more Grabbing the nose adjacent to a player off the line to push the tackle up in front of the inside LB and get an extra shot, or shoving the ILB out of the way with a Frenzy-inspired chain-push. Particularly on drives starting on turn 2 or 3, this can make a big difference against one-square-per-turn cage games, forcing them to start from the LOS. Get a second one, and make ends out of both, and you'll foil agility teams too, forcing them to Leap by preventing them from blitzing a hole (after all, you already have the world's best cornerback). If they fall, have them go straight back or off to the side (depending on what's happening), and if they don't fall, have them go back to the inside, occupying the center square from one-back. That's a very tight net, even if one of your linos gets carted off.

[Smeborg]

Were this my team, I would simply take a normal skill (Block) on the Lino.

The Pro Elves are mini-maxed, it's kind of their purpose in life.

I would take +1MA on Catchers or Blitzers, but not on the Linos. You have enough MA already.

Hope this helps.

[JaM]

matt, I really like your tactics and all, but sometimes you just lose me . I can play BB (well, sort of), but I have no idea about American Football...

As soon as that BB-game goes online I'd like to play a game against you, and see what all those terms mean.
If you dont mind that is...

I guess I'll take the MA for now. Mobility is key I guess.... probably goes for all wargames out there.

[DoubleSkulls]

The issue I have with Matts advice is that is over-emphasises the initial set up. Sidestep might be better on an initial set up but quite frankly if you are getting chain blocked much after that you probably need to work on your defensive formation a bit more.

If I'm planning on having ~5 linemen on the pitch then I don't need to build all of them for LOS work.

[mattgslater]

In politics, they say "early money is like yeast," and that's true of set-up advantage in BB as well. SS is great every turn... but the objective for elves is to set up the D-line as much as possible, because setting up the D-line is what happens when you score, and scoring is Job One. This is one of the great ironies of elfdom: the more successful you are, the more you set up, but the more you set up the more beating you take.

[swntzu]

Excuse my European ignorance but what is a "stacked D-line"? Or O-line for that matter. Nothing rude I hope! :p

EDIT: Just worked out that it's to do with the line of scrimmage and not unusual bedroom antics.

[mattgslater]

If I'm planning on having ~5 linemen on the pitch then I don't need to build all of them for LOS work.

Nope. Just three. Then you have a pair of Blitzers on the corner, also with Side Step. 5 total. Enough to shut down any cage, and to shield your guys from getting mobbed or pinned in place. SS is a vastly superior skill to Fend or Block on the LOS, functioning really as both (Block for keeping on feet, Fend for screwing with the opponent's game, SS does both, and stacks well with both).

And no, your opponent doesn't lose the power to chain-block just because it's not turn 1. Chain-blocks happen throughout a drive, and as players get hurt and your numbers go down, the number of chain-blocks goes up, just because there are more free opponents crowding around.

[DoubleSkulls]

I still am not convinced Sidestep is a better overall skill than block. If you just want to isolate the stats of blocking on the LOS. Lets assume you are being hit by a player with block, and any 2nd hit would also be with block.

Chances of a block player being knocked down is 5/9, with a 1/3 chance of a push. So a second block gives an additional 5/9 * 1/3 (5/27) knockdowns - or about 74% chance of being knocked down.

The same player without block, but with sidestep has a 75% chance of being knocked down on the same block.

Meaning the block player is very slightly better protected if there is always a 2nd player able to hit them.

If you start reducing the chances of their being a 2nd block to say every third or fourth time you get hit then the comparative advantage of block gets bigger.

On top of which block works when you are blocking as well as when being blocked.

Sidestep does allow optimal repositioning too - but given the relative advantages block is, IMO, a clear winner. In the context of this conversation I'm basically saying if you are going to ignore the stat increase then block is a better choice than sidestep.

Dodge is more difficult to model because it depends on the presence of tackle (or not) on the opposition team.

[mattgslater]

But if you get hit by a guy without Block, Block is all-but worthless. On the D-line, the oppo gets to choose who to hit you with. Moreover, Block gives you no control over the flow of the action.

Generally, I agree that Block is better than SS. But a PE team starts with 40% of the ultracool mass-SS thing, so building to get to 100% of the combo gimmick quickly has a big value.

[JaM]

I like where this conversation is going... keep it coming !
Loads of advise, and just general things to think about...