What is happening with the rules review?

[Zombie]

Neo, there aren't many issues that ever reach a consensus around here. In fact, i think i've only ever seen two:
- The booster packs are the stupidest thing ever made.
- The new teams are all broken in some way, and most are overpowered.

If you can't accept that, then it's you against the world, and i can't help you here.

[Deathwing]

Here's a reason -- resellers. Investing in Games Workshop requires a store to put a tremendous amount of money into inventory. Every different blister GW sells forces a store to decide whether they'll invest in it or not. Many stores get stuck with thousands of dollars in inventory stuck on the shelves because, for instance, no one around their store happens to like High Elves. By asking stores to order four blisters instead of one, you're asking them to invest much more in the possibility that someone will want to buy those. If one blister is popular but another is not, they may wind up having to eat the cost of the blisters that won't sell.

Now, for a store with a very savvy manager, it may be possible for them to order JUST the right blisters to meet the demand, but you have to remember that most store owners are forced to keep up with the gaming market as a whole, and can't always be privy to all the intricacies of Blood Bowl. What if a store orders a bunch of Throwers, thinking the quarterback is clearly the most important and valuable player? They'd be stuck with a bunch of product they couldn't move, and wouldn't have the blitzers other people wanted.

Selling the additional players in this sort of generic blister reduces the wall space a store needs to display the Blood Bowl minis, improves the ability of stores to provide the minis their customers want to them, and reduces the necessary investment for small stores to carry the full line of Blood Bowl in their shop.

Besides which, you should still be able to order individual minis from GW's mail order lines, AFAIK. Additional minis can always be used for conversions, given to new players to get them started, etc. As for new poses, they may come eventually, but Fanatic does not have the endless resources that GW does. Would you rather Fanatic refuse to re-release the core 12 teams until they can get them all resculpted?

Milo

Ok, I'm gonna jump in on this one Milo. Pariah's (and numerous other members of the board) are dead right on the blisters.
Example: Norse. The box set set comes with 2 Throwers, 2 Catchers, 2 Blitzers and 6 Line. Why on earth would anybody buy a blister containing an additional useless Thrower and an additional useless Catcher to get the 2 useful players. And you're still a Blitzer short! Talk about 'dead stock' on shelves. Why on earth weren't the blisters packaged as 2 additional Blitzers and 2 additional lineman? You'd shift a much higher amount of them surely? Walk into a store, buy a team box and a blister and you're all set. Or buy a team box, go away and play a few games, pop back and buy the blister to fill out your squad as your roster expands.
Right now I can see people buying boxes and then using mail order to get what they need. Net result? Stores may well be "..stuck with a bunch of product they couldn't move..", which is the exact thing we're trying to avoid.
How about a new player deciding to buy the box and maybe invest in an additional team, grabbing a box and blister, then getting home to discover he's got surplus players and still requires others, and the only way to get them over the counter is to buy yet more surplus players? That's not doing the game a lot of good IMO.

Bottom line. If you want to shift stock over the counter, you have to provide what the customer requires. Blisters/boosters are a brilliant idea, but why oh why aren't they packaged to compliment the box sets of any given race? I'm convinced they'd sell much better that way, and (probably more important IMO) not hack off new players.

[GalakStarscraper]

Neo, there aren't many issues that ever reach a consensus around here. In fact, i think i've only ever seen two:
- The booster packs are the stupidest thing ever made.
- The new teams are all broken in some way, and most are overpowered.

If you can't accept that, then it's you against the world, and i can't help you here.

I'll agree completely with Zombie on this post.

The boosters are the stupidest thing GW has ever offered. They are dead product waiting to happen ... especially after the BB players in the store (like me definitely and everyone else here I'd image) tell the new guy NOT to buy them at all.

Oh and all the teams in the magazines are broken and need improvements/fixed/dropped (depending on your opinions).

Sorry Milo ... no one here agrees that the blisters have any value at all. IF like Deathwing said they were packaged to make sense then they would be incredible (like DW said ... Human Blister = 1 Blitzer/1 Thrower/2 Catchers) THEN ... well THEN they would rock ... as it is its a complete waste of pewter and packaging.

Galak

[Zombie]

More like two blitzers and two catchers, but yeah, we get the point.

[Ghost of Pariah]

I think they should sell some blisters of dice! Eegadz my group would have bought those up! We had guys who couldn't get a box set and were using blank dice with the skulls drawn on. We also had a couple guys who used normal dice and reference chart. I have 2 sets of block dice but I don't like other coaches to touch them.

[Ghost of Pariah]

Just for Milo:

I love the way big guys are being handled. Finally over that all the messy stuff. Normal skill progression and permanent negs is awesome!!!!

[Mestari]

Sorry Milo ... no one here agrees that the blisters have any value at all. IF like Deathwing said they were packaged to make sense then they would be incredible (like DW said ... Human Blister = 1 Blitzers/1 Thrower/2 Catchers) THEN ... well THEN they would rock ... as it is its a complete waste of pewter and packaging.

Yep, that kind of blisters would've been nice. Naturally, offering a bit more expensive boxed sets that offer an entire team would've been even nicer.

[Sputnik]

Mestari wrote:

Yep, that kind of blisters would've been nice. Naturally, offering a bit more expensive boxed sets that offer an entire team would've been even nicer.

With a blister, you could react to rules changes like two more blitzer for the dark elves without the need for new team boxes...otherwise you would again have spare minis but not enough for your current team.

What I found more and probably most frustrating is the (so far) general lack of blood bowl stuff in the stores. If fanatic wants to attract new people to the game (who of course would spend money) then the game itself should be available to unwrap and have a look at it, 'touch it' and get an idea what it is about. That would help more! And the staff would know what you are talking about .

Milo wrote:

Buy a copy of the handbook. You'll find that the 2002 Rules Review is not the dramatic, sweeping change that the 2001 RR was. GW has made available a Microsoft Word document with the changes -- actual errata represents less than a page, with most of the RR just some clarifications. It's not that hard. For that matter, you can always go to a copy shop like Kinko's to print out a copy of the LRB.

No, I won't buy a copy. But just as an idea in connection with the above: if people buy the hopefully available new box containing the 'old' rules and start a league, then they will have the same 'problem' as most leagues already have: current LRB is not 100% what they use as their rules, so they end up with a special sort of 'house rules'.


If someone wants to go to a tournament, then he will be told in advance about the downloadable LRB, current rules and so on and can still get all information he needs from friends with a computer, an internet cafe etc...

Come on, it's not that hard to adapt to the latest rules based on the 'old' boxed ones...

Enough praises for holy fanatic in my little shrine of the third to fifth blessedness which also offers free drugs in advance to get through the day and help to see the things as they really are....

...and back to the rules changes: you guys had a year to prepare a proper rules review. I know this is much work and you have other things to do as well. Guys like Galak made a 'hot list' to help you out a bit with the more 'urgent' topics to be discussed and I would have liked more (or at least some) insight (and maybe your killer arguments ) for all rules which are maintained or changed or clarified or found below the table one morning for no obvious reason...

To be honest, I don't like to hear the repeated money excuse, for example for the cards which are gone. O.k., no money. I can understand that! If you however had the feeling some other handicap tool was necessary instead, good. Noone said you were that dump after all. If your first result ended in a handicap table most players eventually tried to burn in a hopeless effort to get through the long and cold winter you should rethink your table ASOP, for exaple last October (it still is October, right? ). This one influences the whole game! Why did you change it?? Oh, you haven't?? Though call! But why not?? Let me guess..or better not!

You can't make everyone happy but you can at least try to address all topics no matter whether changed or maintained in their current form. Do I ask for too much?? This could in return form a basis for more constructive critisism (half of this post isn't, I know myself) !

Sputnik

[GalakStarscraper]

More like two blitzers and two catchers, but yeah, we get the point.

Sorry Zombie .. .you are correct ... went to the US site and check out the human team pack which has 3 Blitz/1 Throw/2 Catcher ... so an ideal Human blister would be 1 Blitzer/1 Thrower/2 Catchers

Then a beginning player could buy the team and one blister and have

6 Lineman
4 Blitzers
2 Throwers
4 Catchers

In otherwords .... everything they needed.

Galak

[Joaquim]

I think ideally the team packs should be in a nice box with foam (?), something that you could use to transport all the team. And bring the turn, score and re-rolls needed...

I guess it could even have a place for two big guys, in hounor to the goblin and halfling teams...


I'm sorry Galk, I just think starter packs need more linemen, they are never enought...
About Blisters... well, I don't know these, as my only way to get BB stuff it throu GW Online... but I guess I would prefer 3 linemen packs and individual position players... if the shops want to save space just mix the packs (you can have a row with BB humans, for example, with Line and position blisters mixed...)
I know this is harder than this, because shops prefer to sell beigger expansiver things than small ones... what I understand, I hed a shop and making the inventory was... worst than playing agaisnt dwarfs...


On the other hand... another day I saw here in Portugal, Toy'r'Us selling TLOR..!... I guess that BB is the best game ever to introduce people to fig playing and GW general hobby and games... It should BB who should be there, not TLOR..!!...

I know BB is good for new people because I was playing with figs almost alone for years and years... this summer I started playing BB with my sons and now I have too many people... so many indeed that I will turn some away... (they are boring [or worst] so, they should play BB, but not with me...)

[Milo]

Just for Milo:

I love the way big guys are being handled. Finally over that all the messy stuff. Normal skill progression and permanent negs is awesome!!!!

Glad to hear it. We were really trying to remove as many of the special exceptions to the rules as we could. I think the Big Guys are nicely balanced under the new rules.

I think they should sell some blisters of dice! Eegadz my group would have bought those up! We had guys who couldn't get a box set and were using blank dice with the skulls drawn on. We also had a couple guys who used normal dice and reference chart. I have 2 sets of block dice but I don't like other coaches to touch them.

Actually, they used to, and I suspect they will again. I'll be sure to mention to Andy and Jervis that there's some demand. Plus, you can get a special set of block dice by joing the NAF.

Milo

[Milo]

I've been thinking about the whole "booster" idea over christmas break, and I still think you guys are making too big a deal out of it. Let me offer a few more thoughts:

1) No one is forcing you to buy them.
2) All of the players are still available individually online and via mail order.
3) Many stores will only stock the teams and boxed set anyways.

That said, I agree with you that they are probably a stocking disaster waiting to happen. Consumers have only one real way to make their opinions known in this matter: voting with their dollars. From what the coaches here have professed, sales on the boosters will probably not be what GW is hoping for.

It could be argued that buying four boosters will effectively get you a full team for most of the races, and the price of that (~ $60) is not that far off from buying the team for $40 and ordering the others online (plus S/H.) But even that will usually get you excess players you can't use.

I will make some suggestions to the guys at Fanatics, but I can't guarantee anything will happen about them, since the BBRC are not involved in financial decisions.

Milo

[Deathwing]

Milo, did you catch this thread?
viewtopic.php?t=3764

[Thadrin]

I will make some suggestions to the guys at Fanatics, but I can't guarantee anything will happen about them, since the BBRC are not involved in financial decisions.

Make the suggestion that they educate the trolls so they know at least the baasics of the game. From some of the complaints I've heard they don't have the foggiest idea.

I don't get the financial problem here: change the mix of figures. Not the production. presumably they're churning out these figures at a decent enough rate for the box sets. they need to adjust the exact proportions so they're right.

[Milo]

I'm not suggesting that there is or will be a financial problem for Fanatic to change the boosters -- just that I, as a BBRC member, can't make any decisions for Fanatic that don't pertain to rules. It's up to them to decide what they want to sell and how. I can only offer suggestions. That said, there are other BBRC members who have agreed with me, so perhaps we can make some progress.

As for educating the Trolls, I know GW employees are all strongly encouraged to learn the games and participate in office leagues, etc., but when it comes right down to it, it's a hourly-wage job that they hire from the general public for. It's too much to ask for every Troll to be familiar with every race/army/game. Sometimes you'll get an enthusiast who can be really helpful, sometimes you won't. That's just the way it is.

Someone mentioned, earlier on this thread, how the new teams are all over-powered and broken. Could someone point me to a thread that has more information on what you guys think is wrong with them?

Milo