Dirty player - to which teams?

Carnis · Post by **Carnis** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:21 am

Since fouling is a numbers game, ie the one with the longer bench wins, seems like it's ideal for teams with low-cost linemen (hobgobs, amazon/norse with "free" block or dodge-linoes, rotters, thralls, skeletons, zombies, halflings, snotlings, goblins).

The other factor is amount of other dmg skills in the team like mb/piling/claw & st4 players, this means teams like orcs, nurgle, chaos, dwarves could fairly easily benefit as well, increasing their chance of putting the hurt in..

There's a few inbetween with teams who don't do much dmg, but get cheap liners ie skaven, human..

Finally it all means a high skill low player # elf teams may be better off without it. So which teams would you guys take a DP in?

Finally, would you ever take sneaky git as a 2nd or third skill on an elf liner, in theory it allows more tactical fouling (ie: in order to stun the ball-carrier threat, but minimize your own chance of being ejected).

Also a bit out of this query, do you think there's a rating at which point it doesn't matter how fat your team is, or should you always be aiming for minimum rerolls, spare players etc. I feel this is important for the dp query as if you can go all out 16, it makes fouling a lot more beneficial strat for any team.

edit: foulingis -> Fouling is

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:22 am

generally teams with lots of cheap players are better off building a fouler

the cheap players are usually less useful on the whole, a successful foul ridding the other team of one of their more expensive players (especially if they have a few skills) at the loss of a cheapy player from your own team is a worthwhile trade

for elves I find there are more useful skills to have on my players, maybe pro elves should do it as their linemen are cheaper

also for bashing teams it is easier to move a cage against less opponents

PubBowler · Post by **PubBowler** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:26 am

Grumbledook wrote: for elves I find there are more useful skills to have on my players, maybe pro elves should do it as their linemen are cheaper

I always thought:

6 3 4 7 Dirty Player, Sneaky Git 100k

was good value.

tenwit · Post by **tenwit** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:26 pm

It's especially good value due to the third implied skill, Honking Huge Target, which causes other players on your team to have a 20% lesser chance of being blocked. Used tactically, this can be a game-winner.

Elminster81 · Post by **Elminster81** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:32 am

In my opinion, every team,also any kind of elves, can make good use of a DP. Imagine this pesky Strip Ball, +Ag, +Str Wardancer falling down on a dodge... he is surely more worth, in terms of TV, than your elf DP. So stick the boot to him with some assist. Even if your DP gets sent off, you relieved yourself of a big threat.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:55 pm

The problem is do you really want to give your line elves a skill that
a) Doesn't help them stay alive
b) Doesn't help them gain SPPs
c) You may not use in a game at all.

b is important because you really want the SG/DP combo. Its especially powerful for elves because it allows you to foul without assists. So do you need to take dodge (for example) first in order to have a chance of getting to 31SPPs any time soon?

Falkom · Post by **Falkom** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:47 pm

keeping in mind lenght of bench maybe shoudl add point
d) are you ready for retribution?

Johnny Blade · Post by **Johnny Blade** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:15 am

Playing Dark Elves, I always found a dedicated fouler highly useful, since they have highly mobile players, but aren't as fast as true finesse teams. And with the complete lack of S4+ and strength skill access, you usually only have your (unreliable) assassin and the crowd to do lasting damage.

When facing teams like Skaven or Pro Elves, who can dish out some themselves, this can put you in a bad position rather quickly.

Also, you often really want some key players off the pitch. Guarding Human Blitzers and Werewolves come to mind.

Lictor · Post by **Lictor** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:41 am

Having a speacialist dirty player in every team is debateable as a necessity, but if you are looking for fun then having someone with DP/SG will do that.

We don't play this game for real glory or to pick up chicks, if it seems fun, do it. Why complicate more then you have to?

Duke Jan · Post by **Duke Jan** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:10 am

ianwilliams wrote:The problem is do you really want to give your line elves a skill that
a) Doesn't help them stay alive
b) Doesn't help them gain SPPs
c) You may not use in a game at all.

b is important because you really want the SG/DP combo. Its especially powerful for elves because it allows you to foul without assists. So do you need to take dodge (for example) first in order to have a chance of getting to 31SPPs any time soon?

a) Do you want your linemen to stay alive or your positionals?
b) Do you really want your linemen on your uberexpensive team to reach their third skill?
c) If you don't use the skills you can at least put your linemen to use for other things like taking blows to protect the star catcher with the bal.

pseudo_draconic · Post by **pseudo_draconic** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:38 am

Fouler on every team, not taking one is like not taking a kicker in my eyes. Far too many upsides to not take and I've never had one fail to pull his weight over the course of a season.

Though I do see a lot of people who are too "gentlemanly" to make full vindictive use of fouling. For me it's just a game, a violent game, where you kick each others teeth in to get a win.

sturmjarl · Post by **sturmjarl** » Fri May 01, 2009 5:53 am

As previously said above, it works well with cheaper linemen. I'll add that I find it particularly effective with "skilled" rookie linemen like Norse and Amazon, both Economical and versatile. I usually skill up 2 DP linemen on said teams and hope for a doubles on their 2nd skill (rarely happens, though

)

Ogre Marauder · Post by **Ogre Marauder** » Fri May 01, 2009 8:43 am

I find I usually end up with my Kicker taking Dirty Player as a second skill if the team has plenty of other players with Block and/or wrestle. Shows that Fouling isn't what I do a lot, but does give me the option - and will be on the pitch 50%+ of the time (assuming I'm scoring...)

Otherwise, don't really take DP!

BFN

Paul

JJB · Post by **JJB** » Fri May 01, 2009 10:18 am

tenwit wrote:It's especially good value due to the third implied skill, Honking Huge Target, which causes other players on your team to have a 20% lesser chance of being blocked. Used tactically, this can be a game-winner.

I think it's the smartest (and freshest) suggestion I've read on this forum in months, if not years.

Most forget that a dirty player can indeed be a magnet for blocks and blitzes. Not a big one, but still one. And that this can be exploited to one's advantage, just like some coaches get big guys so their opponents waste time and players trying to bring them down, while the former can score unhindered.

Smeborg · Post by **Smeborg** » Sat May 02, 2009 8:09 am

My playing experience suggests that:

- Hobgoblins and Undead Zombies are ideal Dirty Players.

- Rotters are not ideal Dirty Players (the Nurgle team is so clumsy that the DP is usually out of position for the foul). Added to which, skills on Rotters are rare (because they die) and therefore the humble Block is better.

- Pro Elves are not really a fouling team, except against "targets of opportunity". The reason: they can ill afford to have players sent off - they need every reserve.

- I am not sure of the value of Sneaky Git. In practice I have found it to work very rarely (because when I foul, I tend to do it with plenty of assists). Opportunities for the "speculative" foul (which is what S-Git seems designed for) seem rare to me in practice (if you do it before your last action, you still risk a turnover). Maybe it's just my playing style.

So, in summary, I think it depends on the team whether a specialist fouler fits well on it or not. And while I am not at all averse to fouling, I am not sure you need a DP for the purpose now (you did in 3rd Ed., of course). I helped win a game recently by fouling on turn 8 with a Nurgle Warrior. Gave me a 1 player advantage for the second half (KO). No Rotters were in position to foul (after all, if you start with a full roster, there may only be 2 Rotters on the pitch at the start of the drive, one or none by the end of it!).

Hope this helps.