Need ideas for buffing chaos - round 4: proposal

Fat_Emrys · Post by **Fat_Emrys** » Sat May 02, 2009 8:21 pm

voyagers_uk wrote:I still wish that the starting skill of your chaos warrior was an indication of your allegiance

Mighty Blow or Juggs - Khorne
Tentacles or Disturbing Presence - Slaanesh
Nurgles Rot - Nurgle
Leap or VLL - Tzeentch

you could only have one allegiance and never change that unless all CW's on the team died or were fired.

I rather like this with the added option that you can represent Chaos Undivided and have to take one of each.

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Sat May 02, 2009 8:37 pm

I think Thick Skull on Beastmen for free is a great option. They all pay for Horns so it isn't unreasonable to give them a 10K skill for nothing.

Reasoning: Beastmen are some of the toughest creatures around. T4 in WFB, they used to be T4 Wounds 2. Seriously tough. No way they should be the same as a Human or Elf in that respect.

Pink Horror · Post by **Pink Horror** » Sun May 03, 2009 5:30 am

If you actually want a "buff", and not just a fake little bonus thing that doesn't really help:

Sure Feet on all Beastmen for free.

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Sun May 03, 2009 5:36 am

Hi Mattgslater,

??? Really, if you roll a 6+4 on a CW, what do you take? I'd never take an AV increase on an MA5/AG3 player.

Highly situational question.
On a chaos team, where there are faster ball movers out of the box, and CWs usually serve as blockers, I probably wouldn't take MA.
Most likely I'd take a skill, considering their stripped down profile. Block, mighty blow, claw and guard are the candidates.

But if I had to take AV on all 4, or MA on all 4, I think that AV10 on all your blockers will see a lot more use than the move boost. AV10 pieces are super hard to break - and on a developed (not undeveloped) team, this might be a problem. IMO.

Cheers
Martin

cyagen · Post by **cyagen** » Sun May 03, 2009 2:30 pm

I've always been a fan of adding the 3 other gods team and deleting the actual Chaos team.

Especially now with the Pact team, you got a united Chaos team...

Working on 3 teams prototypes for a while now, be posting them shortly.

Rhyoth · Post by **Rhyoth** » Sun May 03, 2009 3:17 pm

_I'm a big fan of Juggernaut for CW, mostly because it givess them a lot of character (and that would allow you to wait a little before taking Block)
_Break Tackle is good too, for the same reasons (but the perspective to see each and every CW taking Dodge on double just bores me to death)

_Thick Skull or Sprint for Beastmen would be good too.

_Regarding the new positionnals, Pass or Dodge don't really feel "Chaotic", so I don't think you should include these skills (as well as Sure Hand and Block) in the starting roster:
if you want to design a "thrower-type", then look for Hail Mary Pass, Nerves of Steel, or Strong Arm instead
if you want a "catcher/runner-type", then think about Jump up, Diving catch .... (and please avoid ST 2, I wouldn't take any ST 2 guy in a Chaos team : a matter of Pride)

SillySod · Post by **SillySod** » Sun May 03, 2009 3:29 pm

Juggernaught for chaos warriors is a bad idea. The benefit for early teams is almost negligable but it boosts late teams because its a great combo with claw/MB/PO and frenzy.

If you have to boost chaos warriors then I suspect that surehands is a good bet.

Andromidius · Post by **Andromidius** » Sun May 03, 2009 7:19 pm

Actually, Break Tackle on Chaos Warriors sounds great. I'd go for that.

And Thick Skull on Beastmen. They do headbutt things alot, after all.

Would mean the team still isn't especially bashy to start with, but it can move around more effectively and stay on the pitch a little more.

~Andromidius

Carnis · Post by **Carnis** » Sun May 03, 2009 7:48 pm

Juggernaut on the CWs is a terrible idea, then you'd have a team where all positionals start with a skill that only works in blitzes, but only one can blitz per turn. + What sillysod said.

If its a buff for the short term that you are looking at, probably just add something like marauder positionals so you don't have to pay 60k per lineman for those 20 extra pairs of horns you won't get to use anyway.

I think the suggested extra class of 40k "ungor" linemen even might be ok, but that would give chaos a dedicated dirtyplayer class in the late game as well, so it wouldn't only be a short-term buff.

I don't really think chaos need buffing, though.

besters · Post by **besters** » Sun May 03, 2009 8:13 pm

Long term it doesn't, but it's slow out of the blocks.

You don't see many people playing them in a tournament.

Having said that I don't think much is required. I think an extra player type with a suitable skill or two might be the way to go.

Perhap's 0 - 2 Marauders 6338 Surehands, Wrestle 60k?

Gives additional skills at the start, but would probably not add much in the long term.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Sun May 03, 2009 9:20 pm

@ Martin: I see what you mean. An AV buff on a 0-1 or 0-2 player is very different from an AV buff on 0-4, now that I think about it.

I really like the idea of Thick Skull Beastmen, very fluffy and really kind of a minimal bennie on a 0-16 player who pays for Horns. The problem with Beastmen is that they're a good deal individually, but you have to buy them in quantities that render their differentiator suboptimal. Thick Skull doesn't have to sweat that problem, and it's not worth a price bump.

Whatever is done, I'd think Chaos should always be short on skills and RRs, and long on individual player potential and value, with no better than a mediocre balance of player types (as opposed to abysmal like it is now). The team has conspicuously too few positions, so adding a positional might be the best way to start.

Mutants? A head start in the Mutations game would be exactly the sort of short-term buff that's not a big deal on the long-term team develpment front.

Magictobe · Post by **Magictobe** » Sun May 03, 2009 9:30 pm

Andromidius wrote:Break Tackle on Chaos Warriors sounds great.

Exuse me if you were joking and I did not notice but if you were serious ...
Break Tackle on chaos warrior????

They have AG3 , Breack tackle would give them AG4 for dodge? Not much advantage IMHO.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Sun May 03, 2009 9:41 pm

Magictobe wrote:
Andromidius wrote:Break Tackle on Chaos Warriors sounds great.
Exuse me if you were joking and I did not notice but if you were serious ...
Break Tackle on chaos warrior????

They have AG3 , Breack tackle would give them AG4 for dodge? Not much advantage IMHO.

See, actually that kind of makes them tempting to me: a skill doesn't have to be worth taking as an improvement to be worth putting on a starting player, so long as it has a clearly identifiable application. As is, MA5 isn't fast enough that you can rely on them for ball-handling regularly (though with AG3 they do have a scoring option that helps them progress faster than lesser blockers), but +1 on a dodge roll really helps.

The problem in my eyes is costing. The CW as it stands is easily worth 110k, but a 110k blocker on a team with poor player balance is cruel, so they're a steal at 100k, and it's not a big deal 'cause they play on a lemon of a team. Give them an unpickable-but-usable skill like Break Tackle and up the price 10k, and you'll see that at least the first two are a good bargain. It's not a buff, though: taking 4 of them to start would limit you to 2 TRRs. And if you give them BT but don't up the price, they're conspicuously overpowered, which is bad even if you're trying to boost the team (in game design, two wrongs don't make a right).

A CW buff (and attendant price bump) would combine well with a Cultist/Ungor type Hobgoblin player at 40k. You could also buff the team considerably by making a GM-access Hobgob the 0-16 player, and the Beastman a 0-6 positional, or even make both of them 0-12. If you do, put TRRs back at 70k.

Pink Horror · Post by **Pink Horror** » Mon May 04, 2009 3:44 am

No one commented on my Sure Feet idea... well, I'm taking it back anyway. I think the best early-league buff for Chaos would be to have a slightly better blocking game. They have a reputation as good blockers, but they don't do that too well in the beginning. A Beastman with Block for 80k has the same TV effect as a skilled-up Beastman, so just put a few of those on the roster.

Andromidius · Post by **Andromidius** » Mon May 04, 2009 4:52 am

Anyone saying Chaos doesn't need a buff needs to play a rookie team in a tournament or league. If you win even 30% of your games then you're very fortunate. I played ten games with my team and lost nine, drew one.

Chaos are just a terrible, terrible team to start with. They only shine once they break into high team value, when nearly every player has Block, Guard and Mighty Blow. And even then they can be beaten due to high player cost and lack of flexibility.

Break Tackle would be a decent small buff for them. Yes, it's a minor buff. That's the point. +1 to their dodge roll (essentially) means they have a little extra flexibility and can reliably shoulder their way past marking players, or even into a cage if you feel brave.

It wouldn't break the team at high team value, and the small price hike would mean more expensive upkeep and replacement cost.

Or would you prefer you give them all Mighty Blow as a starting skill?

~Andromidius

Talk Fantasy Football

Need ideas for buffing chaos - round 4: proposal

Which of these is the most appropriate buff for chaos?