Worried about the state of fouling

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SillySod
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Worried about the state of fouling

Post by SillySod »

Ok, first things first I am a keen fouler. I play to win but if I get the opportunity to stick the boot in a few more times than strictly necessary I will. My initial reaction to LRB5 dirty player was a sad face -> :(

Just making my bias clear.

Recently I've taken part in the open beta test of the upcoming cyanide game. I used that test to hone my LRB5 fouling strategy alot and unfortunately I've been pretty alarmed by the success I had. I didnt get to play many weaker teams but I did get to play alot of teams with a significantly higher TV than my own. Due to the lack of human stars, wizards, or skilled mercs in the beta I found myself pretty much forced to stack up on bribes. Thus I had two main strategies:

Playing normally:
- foul key players using dirty players and multiple assists
- from maybe turn 6 of each half go nuts fouling whatever you can if you have sufficient reserves

Fouling is weak enough that getting some cas/KO profit from it is relatively unreliable even with gangfouls. Its often worth taking a pot shot at a good player thats vulnerable but it seems very hit and miss as to whether or not this pays off. Perhaps with zombies it could be more reliable. Despite this I found myself fouling an awful lot more than I do in LRB4 because you frequently get quite alot of lucky hits in without any sendoffs.

Playing using bribes:
- foul anything as long as you have more than one assist, try to use your dirty players but its better to foul without it than to miss out
- from turn 6 to the end of each half stop fouling with your dirty player unless theres a really juicy target or you have several of them left. Instead foul away your superfulous linefodder and save any remaining bribes for the next half.

Using bribes shifts the attritional value of fouling dramatically. It takes several fairly unlucky fouls before you have to worry about losing anyone from the pitch. With just two bribes and a single dirty player you should end up getting in 12+ fouls over the course of the game without it seriously affecting your on-pitch numbers. This was generally very effective.

To be honest I found it a bit yawnworthy :( The effectiveness of ordinary fouling is potentially very high but it was far too random to rely on, sometimes it was a great tool and sometimes I might as well not have bothered with the rule (I was careful not to let sendoffs lose me games). When it did work because I either had bribes or got lucky it was relatively repetitive: rinse, foul, repeat. Sadly it also tended to detract from the rest of the game because it was frequently too effective. I like fouling but I dont want it to be the logical choice every turn and I certainly dont want it to act as an effective attritional tool because that takes alot of skill out of the game :|

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SillySod
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Post by SillySod »

So I didnt like it... so what? Well I think its worth discussing it to both identify the problem and come up with a possible fix even if its just a set of house rules people can use.

I would consider bringing back IGMEOY along with a more powerful fouling system. While LRB4 fouling is great there is a bit too much potential to get lucky, the ref is a little too leniant. It also involves adding an extra dice roll to the game, something which I know is being avoided. To remedy this I thought about using the original IGMEOY rules (although I didnt realise at the time) combined with the LRB4 dirty player. However, this still promotes a certain number of brainless fouls (such as with an expendable player on turn 8) which is ok for me but possibly not great for less foul-happy people, especially because those brainless fouls will likely be carried out with the full force of +2 to injury.

My latest idea is...
- old fashioned IGMEOY, foul with the ref looking at you and you will get sent off
- bring back the basic +1 to the armour roll for performing a foul
- LRB5 style DPs, +1 to armour or injury
- sneaky git remains exactly as worded, this makes it more powerful but as soon as it does break armour the player will probably leave the pitch
- introduce a new skill: a player may opt to re-roll either the armour or injury roll of a foul but if either the initial roll or the final roll was a double (or otherwise due to IGMEOY) then the player is sent off

All of the skills are intended to combine with each other relatively powerfully which should lend an interesting strategy to building foulers - potentially you could have a reliable wardancer removal option but it will cost several skills making it much less of a throwaway player. You shouldnt be able to spam out killers but it would still be viable to foul. You would also get a very important interaction between players who have to weigh up the possibility of not only losing their player but handing over the IGMEOY counter too.

Anyway, discuss :)

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Post by mattgslater »

How about this?

1) Foul and Stab can yield Cas SPP.
2) Bribe is 4+, cumulative 50k*. Goblins get 2+, 50k each as they do now.
*First one 50k, second one 100k (150k for both), third one 150k (300k total), then 200k (500k total) for four, etc.

No other changes. Fouling is still low-percentage, but it's dangerous even with Bribes. However, now it's tempting. This functions as a minor SPP buff on blockers, something the game could really use. Moreover, Assassins are now playable. Extra bonus: there's something comparable to compete with a Babe at low handicap.

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Post by Pink Horror »

How long you've been playing, Matt? Because foul SPPs used to be standard. And I thought it was bad. The motivation for fouling should be hurting other players. Fouling just for SPPs stinks.

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Post by PubBowler »

SPP for fouling is an absolute no, completely skews player development and game play.

But on to the original ideas.

I'm OK with fouling as it is.
But then, I'm not, by nature, a fouler.

But house ruling the old IGMEOY rule would give a use for all those ref models.

And I would favour bringing +1 to AV roll back.

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Post by Joemanji »

Yep, when we had SPP for fouling a team's Dirty Player always had the most SPPs on the team.

I've not tried the Bribe route just on fouling Peter. Always considered it better for keeping SWs on the pitch.

I had found fouling pretty much worthless TBH. I think there should be an option for tactical fouling ... fouling for a stun with little chance of getting sent off.

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Post by Grumbledook »

well the beta you can take unlimited bribes no?

the actual game you can only take 3 as inducements

the fact you said sometimes it is useless and other times you can get loads off it can obviously be a risky strategy

if it is a problem then I would suggest limiting bribes, though I don't know anyone else who has tried to take it to the extremes you have

as joe suggested even getting a stun can be a good foul as it keeps that player out of the game for a turn, fouls don't have to result in injuries you know ;]

I've also not really been in the position to have a deep enough bench where I went to keep fouling with abandon, I like to keep my players on the pitch for as long as possible

though I don't think fouling needs to go back to having +1 for the fouler and DP going back to +2

from my experience I can't see it being an issue

you say 2 bribes and a DP you should be getting in 12+ fouls, you will have to be giving up 200k in team value to get this so perhaps it is working as an inducement to level the teams out?

there have been teams in the fluff that foul all the time so if these rules allow more fouling cause it isn't as lethal, then maybe that is a bonus?

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Post by Geoff Watson »

Pink Horror wrote:How long you've been playing, Matt? Because foul SPPs used to be standard.
They never were, except as house rules. A lot of foul coaches "accidentally" misread the rules and "thought" that fouls counted for SPPs, but that was just wishful thinking.

Geoff.

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Post by plasmoid »

Disagreed.
Back in original 3rd ed. from 1994, they counted.

IMO, now that it isn't insanely easy to get fouling CAS (+2/+2 DP, team reroll + pro for armor/injur) I think SPPs for it would be fine.

And I'd certainly welcome the opportunity to do turn 15/16 fouls without having to explain myself.
As it is now, whiners will ask for justification for your fouls.
Geeez, it's Blood Bowl.
At least the SPPs would shut them up.

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Post by mattgslater »

Back in the old days, foul SPPs were both a lino development mechanism and a penalty for Dirty Player. Your DP would get skills he didn't need, and your TR would get jacked way up for it. I don't know if he'd necessarily always be the SPP leader on the team, but he'd always be up in the top 3-5, after a star receiver/blitzer or two and maybe the big guy (in the days when Big Guys had G access... now I'm not so sure).

Besides, SPP for fouls is fluffier than no SPP for fouls. Ask any Tennessee Titans fan about Kevin Mawae, and they'll tell you all about what a great player he is, 'cause he's so good at wrecking careers without drawing a flag (not bitter or nothin'... but on Christmas Day, I want to see Merriman jump up and down on his knee).

Frankly the LRB5 fouling rules make optimal fouling strategy simple: don't. That's simply un-fun. I hate these stupid pansy "fouling doesn't work so just be nice" rules so much that I start fouling every turn once the game's been put away just so I can bitch about how stupid the fouling rules are. It doesn't make me any friends... but I've noticed that nobody takes the bait and fouls me in the rematch; no matter how much they'd like to, the odds are just horrid. Horrid odds would be ok if there were a reward: that would make for some funky gaming.

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Post by Carnis »

mattgslater wrote: Frankly the LRB5 fouling rules make optimal fouling strategy simple: don't. That's simply un-fun.
Except that's now how it works now. Any team with a DP can make a healthy profit by fouling rather easily even.

Casualty chance with a dirty player goes on par with ejection chance at AVbreak*10/36 compared to 1-(5/6-avbreak*5/6). Capping at 100% avbreak, where it's 10/36 vs 11/36. Then you win with the knockouts & any possible miss next games/rips anyway, or if you got bribes then by using them.

The problem ofc is high AV players, where its hard to get that AVbreak chance to a decent level without ruining your formation. That's why I'd welcome the +1 to armor for fouling as well (or that every player counts as AV7 or lower on the ground). It's just too heavy a price for many teams to send half the team down to foul an AV9 player & not get any results for it half of the time.

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Post by SillySod »

mattgslater wrote:2) Bribe is 4+, cumulative 50k*. Goblins get 2+, 50k each as they do now.
*First one 50k, second one 100k (150k for both), third one 150k (300k total), then 200k (500k total) for four, etc.
I sort of like that idea but I dont think the problem is really bribes. Bribes make fouling consistant which is probably a fair trade for their cost although if it turns out to be too fair then your idea is a good one.

My real problem is that fouling produces such variable results. You can definately manage it so that its viable (i.e. so that you dont lose if everything goes wrong) but the reward for fouling in the "right" way could be gamebreaking or non-existant. It takes away tactical aspects of the game too frequently for my liking. This is especially problematic because it doesnt really cost alot to have a dedicated DP.

I can take or leave SPPs for fouling. With no aging and TV instead of TR its not likely to be too much of a punishment. It would certainly be an easily managed punishment so perhaps its best left out.
Grumble 'find me a box' dook wrote:well the beta you can take unlimited bribes no?
No. This wouldnt really have changed things either :)
Grumble 'find me a box' dook wrote:the fact you said sometimes it is useless and other times you can get loads off it can obviously be a risky strategy
Yes and no. Its not risky in the sense that it can put you at a real disadvantage. Its risky in the sense that it might not work so unless you are a lucker or have bribes you need some kind of backup strategy.

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Post by Grumbledook »

SillySod wrote:Yes and no. Its not risky in the sense that it can put you at a real disadvantage. Its risky in the sense that it might not work so unless you are a lucker or have bribes you need some kind of backup strategy.
that is how fouling should be imo and was the aim of the fouling rules

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Post by PubBowler »

Geoff Watson wrote:
Pink Horror wrote: Because foul SPPs used to be standard.
They never were, except as house rules. A lot of foul coaches "accidentally" misread the rules and "thought" that fouls counted for SPPs, but that was just wishful thinking.
Does this mean you were a non-foul coach who "accidentally" misread the rules and "thought" that fouls didn't get SPPs.

Cause that was just wishful thinking...
mattgslater wrote: Back in the old days, foul SPPs were both a lino development mechanism and a penalty for Dirty Player. Your DP would get skills he didn't need, and your TR would get jacked way up for it.
Firstly, there were plenty of good skills for old style DPs.
Secondly, TR was so underpowered as a leveling mechanism that the 2nd part of the latter sentence doesn't make sense.
mattgslater wrote: Frankly the LRB5 fouling rules make optimal fouling strategy simple: don't.
As Carnis said, this just isn't the case.

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Post by Pink Horror »

I still foul in LRB, and I give the only good justification for a foul: I want to hurt the guy.

I sort of like the idea of adding a few more SPP categories as house rules. I wouldn't mind seeing an ejection as worth 1 SPP.

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