Need ideas for nerfing dwarfs - round 3: Poll

[plasmoid]

Hi all,
that was the last of my buff threads. 3 nerf threads and I'm done.

I need ideas for nerfing the dwarf team (beyond what LRB5+ did).
This is not a thread for discussing whether a nerf is appropriate - this a thread to come up with ideas for nerfs that a league could use, if said league had already decided that they wanted to do a nerf.

Also note that this a thread looking for a nerf - not a complete overhaul: Not an overhaul of the team and not a change to the core rules of the game. Cute as those may seem, they've got almost no chance of being accepted by actual leagues.
What I'm looking for is ideas that fit well with the fluff and look sensible and balanced.

Time for round 3
The Poll is up
I'll post another poll to determine the new linemen, once we know how this poll turned out

The list was:
1a Longbeards lose block, gain wrestle
1b Longbeards lose block, price reduced to 60K
1c Longbeards lose tackle, no price reduction
1d Longbeards lose tackle, gain 0-4 blitzers
1e Longbeards reduced to 0-4 - new (60-70K) lineman added
1f Longbeards reduced to 0-2 - new (60-70K) lineman added
1g Longbeards lose S access.

2a Remove blitzers

3a Troll slayers to AV7, no price reduction
3b Troll slayers lose block, gain juggernaut
3c Troll slayers lose block

4a Runner to MA5
4b Runner to MA5, but gain sure feet
4c Runner lose sure hands
4d Runner lose sure hands, gain dump off

5a 10K price bump on rerolls or 1 position
5b 10K price bump on 2 or more things (rerolls/positionals)

Cheers
Martin

[plasmoid]

Right - to each his own, but for me, dwarfs could take good sized hit, and still be in the top half of tier 1.

My suggestion is this:
*Longbeards and blitzers lose block but gain wrestle.

Yes, I know there are those who'd consider this crippling. And I just don't agree. Sure, wrestle is less optimal, but it's still a good skill - and dwarfs will still be a good team.
Cheers
Martin

[Grumbledook]

yep gotta love moving 1 square after using 3 to stand up ;]

give them an ogre, bonehead and loner will cause reliabilty problems

dwarves are one of the easiest teams to beat imo, as such i don't think they need nerfing

[plasmoid]

dwarves are one of the easiest teams to beat imo, as such i don't think they need nerfing

I base my thread on these data:
http://www.plasmoids.dk/bbowl/LRB5Stats.htm
But hey, we don't have to agree on that.

give them an ogre, bonehead and loner will cause reliabilty problems

Just so I understand:
Give them an Ogre
or
Replace the Roller with an Ogre?

Cheers
Martin

[Darkson]

Make Longbeard/Blocker a 0-4 position, and give them 0-16 Linemen 4/3/2/9 TS, Block G/SAP - 50/60K

[DoubleSkulls]

New skill - "Stumpy Legs" Fails GFIs on a 1 or a 2.

Remove Block from the Blockers, with a price drop to match.

[Alamar]

I haven't thought about nerfing Dwarves. The things that come to mind are beating up on positionals such as:

-- Take Tackle away from Dwarf Linemen .. keep costs the same.

-- Increase cost of Blitzers to 90K

-- Make Troll Slayers AV7 [they don't wear much armour] but keep costs the same.


Now you have your choice of nerfs:

-- Dodge is a useable skill vs. Dwarfs
-- TV is slightly higher
-- The team is slightly more prone to CAS and similar issues


*******************************************************

FYI: While it's rough I still think leaving Block on almost all players is the way to go. I'd hate to see Dwarves without Block and lots of GS access.

[Andromidius]

Aye, remove Tackle from Blockers and reduce their cost by 10k. Then give Tackle to Blitzers and increase their cost by 10k. And raise their rerolls by 10k.

Should average out at around the same team cost (maybe slightly less). Might encourage Dwarves to not spam Strength skills as well if they don't already start with the two best (for them) General skills.

I would be tempted to remove S access as well. I mean Orc Linemen don't get S access, so why should Dwarves?

Also makes Chaos Dwarves more unique.

Lastly, could redesign Troll Slayers. Remove Block, give them Juggernaut and Piling On, and remove General access. Turn them into proper berzerkers with less access to defensive skills. Make them CAS machines, but prone to being fouled off the pitch. Make them interesting.

~Andromidius

[Mysterious Stranger]

In my league, I'm testing the following:

- Dwarf Linemen are 50k, remove the Block skill
- Runners are 70k
- 100k Troll Slayers
- 60k Rerolls

I'm fine with the price break on Blitzers. I'm considering giving them 0-4 blitzers if they seem to be a bit over-nerfed. I'm guessing they will be okay in medium TV or higher, probably weak at low TV until they have some Guards.

Make Longbeard/Blocker a 0-4 position

0-4 blockers is not that far off of 0-16 blockers: with 6 other positional players (four of which are definite MUST HAVE), they're fielding like 2 linemen.

[Darkson]

Make Longbeard/Blocker a 0-4 position

0-4 blockers is not that far off of 0-16 blockers: with 6 other positional players (four of which are definite MUST HAVE), they're fielding like 2 linemen.

Not when you remove 3 in the first 4 turns (maybe that's just the dwarf teams I've faced recently though ).

[mattgslater]

I like 50k linos/60k TRRs with 0-4 Blockers.

5/3/2/9 Thick Skull GS/AP 50k?

2 Slayers
2 Runners
2 Blitzers
3 Blockers
2 Linemen
3 TRRs
10k banked

2 Slayers
2 Runners
2 Blitzers
4 Blockers
2 Linemen
2 TRRs

A little weaker, and a little more fun, both. They now have 3-4 guys on the field without Block, and their bench doesn't have Block.

[DoubleSkulls]

remove Tackle from Blockers

I'm not really a fan of this because I think the league impact is significant. Dwarves are one of the most popular teams, and having all that tackle tens to mean that the Dodge skill is seen as less of an automatic choice than it would be otherwise.

Take tackle away and I think every player with AG access would take dodge on a first skill. Its just too good in tackle-light environments. The fundamental impact would be significant and I think push the advantage too much the way of elven teams.

[plasmoid]

Hi guys,
interesting stuff - though some of the solutions have so many components that I'd consider them an overhaul, and that's not what I'm looking for.

Like Ian, I'm a bit worried about removing tackle completely. One idea could be to shift tackle to the blitzers. But I'm not sure that that wouldn't just be a stealth buff! With the price cuts from the blockers, they'd be better against many teams. And often (not always) to tackle players is enough to cover the opposition.

Removing block would definately hurt. Too much perhaps? On the other hand, they'd still have 4 reliable block players left - which gives a lot of reliability - and price cuts from both the longbeards on the pitch and bench. Depending on whether they get costed at 50K or 60K that could be a lot or a big lot of TV. Really not sure how this would work.

For me, wrestle for block on longbeards and blitzers is good because:
*It doesn't come with a price cut, so it wouldn't be a stealth buff.
*Wrestle is not great for bashing. And that's the point. But like block it would still give protection from turnovers, it does have uses defensively.
*No players with block+tackle would mean that dwarf teams will be less deadly for stunty teams - which is good, IMO, because dwarf vs stunty games can really get ugly.

Cheers
Martin

[Ikterus]

Wrestle on the Blockers AV 7 on the Slayers.

[voyagers_uk]

Replace Block with Mighty Blow on the Slayers.

increase TRR cost by 10K

I doubt any change to the 'Roller would work as I never see it taken anyway.

I echo Ian's comments on removal of tackle.... this would impact all of the other teams in the league

The TRR is the slight Nerf this requires as they tend to stock up early

Maybe drop the Runners AV by 1 and increase their MA by 1 no change in price.... slightly weaken them long term but provide a speedy scoring option. 7 3 3 7 Sure Hands Thick Skull GP/AS would be good.