Need ideas for buffing chaos - round 4: proposal

[plasmoid]

I've done well with starting chaos. Certainly better than gobbos.
But anyway...

Here is my take on the currently highlighted items:
Chaos Warrior: 6439
I like that a lot. Makes keeping the 100K price tag not too far fatched. And emphasizes how chaos is different from Nurgle.

Chaos Warrior: 543 10
I'm worried how much of a boost this will be long term. Also, the pricing formula considers AV9->AV10 a 30K step, so keeping his price at 100K seems a bit of a stretch.

+ Break Tackle
+ sure hands
Both of these are minor tweaks. But useful ones. And again they emphasize chaos warriors as more mobile than their Nurgle counterparts.
I also like how sure hands would make chaos warriors kind of a counter to strip ball wardancers in tournaments.

+ Juggernaut
Another skill for blitzing. Doesn't really work for me.

Bestigor (block)
Pretty simple. Will make a difference for starting chaos, and probably not so much for developed chaos - I guess... It will make it easier to build some stable combo bashers tho' (frenzy, mighty, piling, claw). Not sure.

Ungor/Brey/Marauder (crappy lineman)
I like these, because they're so clearly for the short term only. (Though they could be used as cheap foulers later). Cheap players will let you start with a more pumped starting roster.

0-2 Minotaurs
Yikes. I like the fluff. But even with the problems of 2 wild animals, I dread what it would do in the long term!

50K rerolls
Simple. And probably the same size price cut as the cheap linemen for a starting roster. It's just slightly less cool than the linemen - IMO. (Then again, it wouldn't require new minis)

Cheers
Martin

[Andromidius]

Cheaper rerolls would be great. Would mean you could have enough to pick up the ball reliably at the start of your drive, and still have enough to reroll critical blocks while grinding down the pitch.

~Andromidius

[Pink Horror]

Chaos are pure trash when starting out. Expensive players who struggle to do anything. Sure, give them twenty or more games and they might become useful... But that's a long time to wait when even Humans can bash you off the field (like I said, S3 Block + assist is better then S4, and very easy to set up).

I've played as Chaos. I've played as Goblins. Chaos is much better. They do not "struggle to do anything". How could you say that about a 3+ roll or a 2-die block? Yeah, there's better out there, but that's not a struggle. Many of the basic skills, especially the ball-handling skills, are partially psychology. A beastman can do most of the typical things a Blood Bowl player needs to do. The biggest problem is that he's harder to trust.

[atropabelladonna]

I have a home made beastman team and we use the following as ungors

0-4 Ungor 7 2 3 7 Dodge, AM, 40K

They help in the short term, but don't have much potential in the long term. Being limited to only A and M skills keeps them from developing too much.

The dodge, 7 speed, and cheap cost really help at the start.

[Andromidius]

Chaos are pure trash when starting out. Expensive players who struggle to do anything. Sure, give them twenty or more games and they might become useful... But that's a long time to wait when even Humans can bash you off the field (like I said, S3 Block + assist is better then S4, and very easy to set up).

I've played as Chaos. I've played as Goblins. Chaos is much better. They do not "struggle to do anything". How could you say that about a 3+ roll or a 2-die block? Yeah, there's better out there, but that's not a struggle. Many of the basic skills, especially the ball-handling skills, are partially psychology. A beastman can do most of the typical things a Blood Bowl player needs to do. The biggest problem is that he's harder to trust.

Speaking from experience. Not having any natural rerolls hurts the team. Not having any 2+ dice rolls hurts. Not having any block really, really hurts. It's not about trust. Trust doesn't improve your dice rolls. A 2 is still a big fat fail, no matter how optimistic you are.

Chaos are a turnover machine until you get some basic skills. Then they play about as well as a rookie team. They only become a terrifying powerhouse once most of their players are on their third skills.

Whereas Humans can actually pick up the ball reliably without burning team rerolls, get Block right off the bat, and can use their team rerolls to knock players down. And Elves...everything on a 2+, and usually with a reroll as well.

Trust me. Get even average luck with Chaos and you'll lose against someone with average luck playing Humans, Orcs, Elves, whatever. Chaos are firmly tier 2 in my books.

~Andromidius

[mattgslater]

I'm with Andromidius here. Chaos are lame until they've had about ... well, I don't think it's 20 matches, but it's a lot. Early Goblins are better, though even in the short seasons I'm used to a good Chaos team can be very deadly in the playoffs.

In terms of balance, a 60k lino generally means a 50k TRR. But Chaos is chaotic, which means that they don't benefit from the discipline and coordination of Dwarfs, Elves, Humans and Amazons. TRRs represent the benefit of quality coaching and regular practice. 60k TRRs should be the least they pay, just in terms of fluff.

[Andromidius]

Team Rerolls could represent the Gods' favour in this case, rather then actual discipline. Plus reducing the price of Rerolls is better then cheaper players from a balance point of view, since players don't double in price mid league.

Heck, you know what? I think I'd prefer S3 Block Chaos Warriors to S4 non-Block. They'd skill up alot fast, since you can get two dice blocks with one assist anyway, and it limits the team's ability to destroy their opponants late league.

~Andromidius

[Carnis]

Heck, you know what? I think I'd prefer S3 Block Chaos Warriors to S4 non-Block. They'd skill up alot fast, since you can get two dice blocks with one assist anyway, and it limits the team's ability to destroy their opponants late league.

Trolling, right? The only problem with CW's is that they are not optimized to doing what they are supposed to be doing, i.e they pay for an extra MA & AG point over black orcs. This makes chaos teams very TV-inefficient early on combined with horns-linemen. Dropping strenght off the CWs would really not fix this problem, but it would create a bunch of new ones, like how to beat orc or nurgle teams who out-str you across the board.

[plasmoid]

Also,
the mere sentiment shows me that you're not using one of chaos' unique abilities: The ability to run the ball on an ST4 player.
And you're not alone.

That's why I'd prefer a buff that would make it a bit easier to use CWs as ball runners.

[besters]

Presumably this means Sure Hands on Chaos Warriors then?

That would be an interesting experiment.

I have just started them in a local league, played 4 won 1 drawn 3 but only added one skill. Although I do now have a Minotaur. I certainly haven't used the Warriors for ball handling.


Jim

[plasmoid]

Yeah. That or MA6.
With MA6 the bestmen wouldn't be faster than CWs anymore.

[Andromidius]

Trolling, right?

Wrong. Just because someone has an opinion that differs from yours doesn't mean it's trolling. I'm very sincere.

And S3 can counter S4 easily. It's called assisting. And I'd rather have Block then +1ST in this situation. The only time S4 really comes into effect is after you've got a ton of Guard, or if you're soloing enemy players (which is rarely adviceable).

And like I said, removing S4 players from the Chaos team (and Nurgle, to be honest) would stop the Chaos Grindfest later in the league, while making the team more competitive at lower team values. Since Chaos Warriors would have Block at 0SPP, they can get Guard as their first skill. Which, as you can imagine, would counter said Black Orcs quite nicely even if you only have one Guarder on the line (since Black Orcs tend not to get Guard until 16SPP).

And yes, I tried using them to run the ball. Just didn't work, due to never being able to pick the ball up or catch handoffs before I could cage.

But they'd still make decent ball carriers (at least as well as they are now). They'd still have AV9, and Block is a reasonable counter to most attackers early league. But why would Chaos Warriors have Sure Hands? It doesn't fit their imagery. Block does, and since we can't have Block S4, Block S3 is the next best thing.

~Andromidius

[Carnis]

And S3 can counter S4 easily. It's called assisting. And I'd rather have Block then +1ST in this situation. The only time S4 really comes into effect is after you've got a ton of Guard, or if you're soloing enemy players (which is rarely adviceable).

And like I said, removing S4 players from the Chaos team (and Nurgle, to be honest) would stop the Chaos Grindfest later in the league, while making the team more competitive at lower team values.

And yes, I tried using them to run the ball. Just didn't work, due to never being able to pick the ball up or catch handoffs before I could cage.
~Andromidius

At least in our league, ST4 players tend to solo/mark ST3 players who are left out in the open, or in the corners of lines. Having 4 just means you can do so much marking, that the opponent playing st3 team will need to rely on 1die blocks/dodges or get 8 assists for his 4 marked players, so st4 is a really big advantage. Especially with AV9, which means you getting hurt just isnt very likely.

Removing S4 players I feel, would possibly buff them in the short term, but the long term nerf would be more significant. Also, beastmen can get guard as 1st skill in shorter leagues, where you don't have time to grind entire team full of block/guard/mb.

Ballhandling with MA5 players is for some ve-ry patient players, it takes up to 5 turns to run from one end of the field to the other. I think it's clear the beastmen are the #1 ballhandlers (due to MA & lack of ST4), and I think that's how it should be. S4 as a ballhandler seems like a lot of wasted marking/blocking potential, when a guard(ed) cage will do just the same in terms of countering leaping WDs/slann.

[Geoff Watson]

I'd give Chaos Warriors Block and a price increase; it's the first skill most of them take.

I realise that "ST4 and Block" is not supposed to be on a starting player, but they'd get it soon anyway, and helps Chaos past the first few skillless games.

Geoff.

[Lictor]

Give CW MB.

Give's greater reward but still keeps the element of risk that the team was designed to have.

If one feels that they need the price increase I wouldn't add more then 10K for it.

Consider FG 4429 SF, TS at 110K, CW are pretty cheap.