Need ideas for buffing chaos - round 4: proposal

[mattgslater]

0-16 Beastman 6/3/3/8 Horns GSM/AP 60k
0-4 Warrior 5/4/3/9 Mighty Blow GSM/AP 110k
0-1 Mino as is
TRR 50k

At 1M, you can't have 4 Warriors and 3 RRs (unlike the current math), which is a pittance in exchange for all that MB, but shouldn't be ignored.

[SillySod]

Giving warriors mighty blow as a starting skill is full of yuck :? Mighty blow doesnt fix early roster issues all that well whil also making them significantly better in both the medium and long term, especially the medium term.

[Lictor]

Giving warriors mighty blow as a starting skill is full of yuck :? Mighty blow doesnt fix early roster issues all that well whil also making them significantly better in both the medium and long term, especially the medium term.

There is nothing to 'fix' in the roster. This thread is about a 'slight' buff and the mass agree the only problem is starting skills (and for some reason went crazy on new positionals)

This team is designed for experienced coaches and as such it is an unskilled bashy side.

Giving CW Block makes them a team a newb can pick up competently. At first I liked the idea of Sure Hands on CW but it certainly doesn't feel right.

MB does not decrease the risk of a turn over, but it increases the development rate of this team, they way it is intended to develop, by walking the ball over the line as an after thought to the bloody pulp left on the pitch.

And I think there is too strong a push to invent new positionals. This is about a small buff. Giving them Core skills seems unchaotic, so I think give them a skill that helps them skill up faster the way they are meant to. *rolls block die... Double both down... Uses re-roll, Skull and K-pow*

My dice even just summed up the team

[Andromidius]

Removing S4 players I feel, would possibly buff them in the short term, but the long term nerf would be more significant.

Aye, though alot of people complain about high team value Chaos. They utterly murder their opponants to the point of crippling teams into retirement. So I don't think its a bad thing par say.

It also means that a Chaos Warrior with +1S doesn't essentially become a Big Guy without the drawbacks. S5 Chaos Wariors are just brutal (the difference between S4 and S5 is significantly higher then S3 and S4, in my opinion).

Also, adding Mighty Blow just turns the team into a monster even faster. It's usually the 3rd skil choice on Chaos Warriors. And it was Mighty Blow on Mummies that prompted the huge nerfs on Khemri.

~Andromidius

[Koigokoro]

Juggernaut on CWs without cost increace would make blitzing in the beginning more reliable and nicely make all but 1 player in the team have a blitzing skill to begin with. It wouldn't be a major change in balance though.

[Pink Horror]

Speaking from experience. Not having any natural rerolls hurts the team. Not having any 2+ dice rolls hurts. Not having any block really, really hurts. It's not about trust. Trust doesn't improve your dice rolls. A 2 is still a big fat fail, no matter how optimistic you are.

Speaking from experience (what, does your experience mean more than mine?), confidence is a huge part of Blood Bowl. Yes, it doesn't change the odds, but aggressive play often makes up for the extra turnovers. Failing on a 1 or 2 keeps players from trying things they should, which causes more losses than the actual 2's rolled. I've seen this often in my years of playing. My, it's been a long time...

Chaos obviously doesn't fit your style. But that does not mean they are weak. You keep mentioning your experience like mine does not exist. My experience must be some sort of fake memory implanted in my brain, because I remember my rookie Chaos games going just fine. I take lots of TRRs (even when they cost 70k each) and beastmen.

And don't pretend ST4 is meaningless. Why do people get so excited when they roll +ST? And why do those players become targets? Maybe if you had unlimited players on the board, you could always get those assists you mention. But there are only 11. Getting ST4 wherever you need it - doing a job with 1 player when most other teams would need 2 - is the advantage of being Chaos. What other player starts with ST4 and AG3? That's the fun part of being a rookie Chaos team. Taking that away for a mediocre blitzer would ruin the team. Don't take it away, just because you don't have the confidence to use that agility. Yep, it's about trust, that 2 is no more common than 3, 4, 5, or 6.

[Pink Horror]

0-16 Beastman 6/3/3/8 Horns GSM/AP 60k
0-4 Warrior 5/4/3/9 Mighty Blow GSM/AP 110k
0-1 Mino as is
TRR 50k

At 1M, you can't have 4 Warriors and 3 RRs (unlike the current math), which is a pittance in exchange for all that MB, but shouldn't be ignored.

To make them as bloody as the fluff:

80k Beastmen +Mighty Blow
110k Chaos Warriors +Grab
60k Re-rolls

High lineman price means a min 880k worth of players. Add 2 RR and you have nothing left to spend. So you're starting with an all beastman team, like I did once in 3rd edition, except now they are better...

Meanwhile, to complement a skill that only works on blitzes, Chaos Warriors get a skill that is only good on blocks (except for Side Step negation).

It's like a nerf and a buff all in one! Also, I've always wanted to make an 80k lineman team. Having such an expensive roster might actually balance out MB. Or not. But it would be fun to find out.

[Carnis]

80k Beastmen +Mighty Blow
110k Chaos Warriors +Grab
60k Re-rolls

Yikes!

This'd be a nightmare for any team to face at any stage of the game.

Even if it only gets to start at 11 players & 2 RRs, your opponent gets to face 11 mighty blow horns players, who do not have bone head to balance it out. Early play would be hurt, yes, and late play would be se-ri-ous-ly buffed. And the team would arrive at it earlier, getting +100% more casualties, than a normal rookie basher team.

Just imagine those block guard claw linemen & block piling on claw blitzers combined with block stand firm CW blockers for sideline ownership.

This could happen in warhammer (some would say, has happened), but thankfully BB is being developed rather indepently from GW.

Lets maybe call your roster Khorne & rename the players to:

0-16 Bloodhound 6 3 3 8 Horns/Mighty Blow 80k GSM/AP
0-4 Bloodletter 5 4 3 9 Grab 110k GSM/AP
0-1 Bloodthirster - Minotaur Stats SM/GAP

Rerolls 60k

Fluffwise it seems ok, though I don't know if blood hounds are really fit as BB players. Balanced? - Hell no!

[Pink Horror]

I know it looks unbalanced. I'm not the one who wants to buff Chaos. But I look at that roster, and I think I'd like to see it in action, if only to know how broken it is.

[Andromidius]

Again, I'll state, faith in rolling dice means nothing. Not having a large number of rerolls skills to fall back on makes them really unreliable.

And as far as I can tell, you were just lucky with your dice rolls. I was average, and average doesn't do well on such a team.

My Norse team performed alot better, and I had appalling luck with them. My Thrower, for example, has only a single completion. He just cannot throw the ball even with his reroll! Still not won a game out of three matches, but I've skilled up four players already via casualties and a couple of touchdowns.

S3 + Block is the key. It's what makes Norse so good, along with Orc and Human Blitzers. Short term, at least.

~Andromidius

[plasmoid]

OK - time to put a cork in this threadnap.
Andromidius - this is round 2, which means we're trying to pick the best ideas from a set list of options.
We're past adding new options.

That being said, if you can get one other poster to agree that it would be an actual buff to have ST3+block instead of ST4, then you can get it added to the poll.

Personally, I've played starting chaos to good effect.
And I just don't understand why they'd fail ballhandling as often as you claim.
On a standard team, starting with 3 rerolls, you should have a reroll for a pick-up or 2 each half.
AG3 with a reroll succeeds 9 times in 10.

Cheers
Martin

[Pink Horror]

My Norse team performed alot better, and I had appalling luck with them. My Thrower, for example, has only a single completion. He just cannot throw the ball even with his reroll! Still not won a game out of three matches, but I've skilled up four players already via casualties and a couple of touchdowns.

Okay, I guess you must really know what you're doing, being 0-3 with a team that's great early in a league. Maybe you have no trouble with faith in the dice. I have never seen you play. But in the games I have witnessed, it is one of the huge differences between a coach at "Experienced" level and a coach around "Emerging Star". Chaos is definitely for "Veteran" and above.

[Andromidius]

I guess the concept of 'luck' is hard to grasp sometimes. Or the fact my Norse started mid league against developed teams and still nearly won each of their games despite having abysmal luck with ball handling.

Whereas my Chaos team started at the start of the league, got bashed by everyone including the Wood Elves, barely developed at all in a dozen games and then got retired for being truely worthless.

But then you're obviously a pro player, and know more then everyone else on the subject.

~Andromidius

[mattgslater]

One thing I haven't seen noted here is that Chaos are the only non-Stunty roster with fewer than 6 positionals. This would scream for an extra 0-2 positional. A 70k-80k positional would provide the best math, or failing that, the cheapo option.

Maybe a 0-4 positional at 80k... but nobody has really proposed such a thing yet. An 80k Bestigor would just be a Beastman with Block or another top skill, or with AV9 and a weak skill. 80k is too much for an Ungor/Bray. 100k would buy a righteous Bestigor... AV9 with Block and Sure Feet?

Nah. I think you want either a 70k-80k model or an alternate lino at 40k-50k. I really like the idea of a 0-4 80k model: such a piece would compete with both Warrior #4 and RR #3. That would really lend itself to engaging, dynamic team design.

[Geoff Watson]

How about this:

Chaos Warriors get a free random mutation.
Roll at the start of each match what free mutation they get; if they roll a mutation they already have they may choose one. The mutation is lost at the end of the match.

Geoff.