Need ideas for nerfing dwarfs - round 3: Poll

[Skarsnikk]

I'd be happy if they simply removed Strength access from the Blockers, no more Guard spamming!

[Digger Goreman]

Now... IF we remove tackle access AND Elves....

DG

[Andromidius]

Problem with just removing Strength access is that then Blockers really have no skills to choose from other then Fend. Everything else is pretty much wasted on them (and even Fend isn't especially useful).

Most G access players have at least two choices - Block/Wrestle and Tackle. Blockers already have them both.

~Andromidius

[Rhyoth]

Well, you guys were faster than me : I don't have much more to say, except :

A) 80 k Blockers
note : maybe you could reduce DR price (or remove loner) if you pick this one.

B) Troll Slayers lose Block and gain Juggernaut
note : this item is interesting, but it won't make a huge différence, so you should combine it with something else

Now, I'd like to react to some interesting ideas :

Make Longbeard/Blocker a 0-4 position, and give them 0-16 Linemen 4/3/2/9 TS, Block G/SAP - 50/60K

maybe Wrestle instead of Block for the lino ?
-> Problem here, the team is just too cheap, so you need 60 k TRR (or maybe even 70k in that case) to rebalance the roster

remove Tackle from Blockers and reduce their cost by 10k. Then give Tackle to Blitzers and increase their cost by 10k. And raise their rerolls by 10k.

with 0-4 Blitzers, that could work

*Longbeards and blitzers lose block but gain wrestle.

I think you should limit this to Longbeards only : Blitzers (from all teams) should always have Block

[mattgslater]

A lot of what makes Dwarfs powerful is that MVPs tend to concentrate on Blockers, who have S access and don't have to burn a skill on Block. Simply creating a lino position, any lino position, will tone that down. If the lino has GS access, it's not much help so long as the lino doesn't start with Block, so it can be used as a fig-leaf for valuing Thick Skull at 10k. Taking S access of the Blockers, or upping their price, isn't the answer, I'm afraid. The team would be crippled without easy access to Guard, and there's no way a Dwarf Blocker is worth the same as a Saurus (or even a BOB, and frankly BOBs have to be a poor deal 'cause the Orc Blitzer is so cheap; Dwarf positionals by contrast are overpriced because they are so critical to team function).

[Carnis]

If you really want to tone down dwarves, here's my suggestions:

Runner, lose either -1 MA or sure hands.
Trollslayer, lose block - +MA, dauntless, frenzy, thick skull should be enough for a cheap starting positional..
Blockers: lose Block, drop cost 10k

Rerolls: keep the same.

Choose some combo from the above. The problem of dwarves is they a) start "too" perfect b) are too reliable, i.e. if they can try it they will (usually) succeed. There's ofc a lot of things dwarves can't even try, like leaping & oneturning & effective passing plays..

Finally, dropping block on the liners/trolls would allow some of them to pick up wrestle for ball play (I know not many would, but some would/should). In addition it would make developing dwarves a lot more interesting, as some would have to go guard early, some block and not all guard/mb like now.

Additionally, it would make norse the only team who gets starting linemen with block, and they pay heavily for it in AV whereas dwarves gain +AV, Thick skull, tackle, strenght access & THEN pay for it by having less ag/ma.

[mattgslater]

Ooh...

0-2 Runner 5/3/3/8 Sure Hands, Sure Feet, Thick Skull GAP/S 80k

[SillySod]

Make Longbeard/Blocker a 0-4 position, and give them 0-16 Linemen 4/3/2/9 TS, Block G/SAP - 50/60K

Think this is the right way to go but you definately dont want to be too severe or they'll crash and burn vs other strength teams.

0-4 Longbeards (or even 0-2)
0-16 Linemen 5 3 3 9 TS GS/AP 60k

PS, whatever you do dont nerf the runner, any nerf there will send the team too far the other way because its a 100% essential position.

[Lictor]

Dwarfs are the only team I have ever struggled against. I have thought long and hard about ways I would like to nerf them and simply put everything I can think of sends them too far away.

Everything I have seen suggested here again, send the Dwarf team TOO FAR the other way. I HATE dwarfs, but I still want them to be competitive and I think changing stats and skills directly impacts everything the team is.

I have read and re-read this thread and thought about both sides of every arguement posted, and it still boils down to 'If you change that they will suck' and I really don't like the thought of inventing new positions into a team that has a very specific dynamic.

I think the end result is, up the price on all of them. You can't take anything away from them without them being horriffically affected by it. Inventing positionals just seems wrong when the thread is about a slight nerfing. But Dwarfs are damn freaking awesome at what they do. So I think 'have a price tag that better reflects the fact they are good at what they do.'

You can't take away Block or they will be a grindy team without bash. You can't substitue it with Wrestle because they are too slow. You can't take away Tackle because they will be even farther outrun.

If their is anything to take away skill wise I'd suggest TS but that then becomes a fluff issue. Thankfully I can't recall anyone suggesting an AV drop.

Slap an extra 10K on everyone including RR's. Thats adds 140K to the standard line up anyone would take, which has an immediate impact on the team short term without making them suck and complicating the team by having untested positionals. This also better reflects the team which has everything but speed.

I find this to be a hard team to change without crippling them, so re-evaluate their worth.

[Andromidius]

I would go with 0-4 Blitzers with Tackle at the cost of Longbeards losing Tackle themselves.

The end result would be a few less Tackle on the pitch, more expensive 'star' positionals, and possibly fewer rerolls if the team tries to max out.

Oh, and 50k Rerolls are needed in this situation as well.

General skill selection probably won't change for Dwarves. Longbeards would still get Guard and Stand Firm first, and Blitzers would still get Mighty Blow and Guard.

~Andromidius

[DoubleSkulls]

0-4 Longbeards (or even 0-2)
0-16 Linemen 5 3 3 9 TS GS/AP 60k

I like this idea with 0-4 longbeards as it gives Dwarves more AG.

[Mysterious Stranger]

0-4 Longbeards (or even 0-2)
0-16 Linemen 5 3 3 9 TS GS/AP 60k

I think this might be on the right track, but I'm not a huge fan of giving them too many more Ag 3 players (I think two Blitzers and two Runners should be sufficient to operate their running game).

What about 5 3 2 9 TS GS/AP? S-access seems like a pretty nice bonus (compared to Orc Linemen, probably the most comparable positional to this build...) and making their linemen a wee bit faster will also make them more fun to play. Maybe 50k for that build of lineman, though I haven't costed it out...

[Carnis]

0-4 Longbeards (or even 0-2)
0-16 Linemen 5 3 3 9 TS GS/AP 60k

I like this idea with 0-4 longbeards as it gives Dwarves more AG.

Are you sure it's a nerf though? Then it will be 2x trolls, 2x blitzers, 2x runners, 4x blockers 1x lineman in the field.

The lineman being a 5th AG3 player on the field. Swapping the last blocker to an ag3 player seems more like a considerable buff to ball play than a big nerf to bash play. Also, it could maybe become a dirty player ending up as a stealth buff to dwarven bash play as well, since guardheavy dwarf team is already tightly forming a line, it wouldn't be a huge investment in positions to foul some of the players on the feet of the blockers.

I stand by my suggestion of dropping block on the rookie trollslayers and/or the blockers, making it possible for a dwarven grind sometimes at least early in the team development ends in a turnover more often than it ends in knocking out opposing players. Trollslayers could get juggernaut instead of block, would fit their fluff better than block anyway, but I don't know if it would have such a big effect if it was done, since trolls blitz most of the time anyway.

All chaos, nurgle and most orc, chaos dwarf, skaven, human etc make do without block as a starting skill. Shouldn't be such a given on all the dwarf positionals either.

[DoubleSkulls]

However it does mean they don't have an inexhaustable supply of great players on the bench - if they go 13 that's 3 line dwarves - and they don't have the best journeyman either.

Its not a big nerf, but then I never said I thought they needed a nerf or if they did how big a one they should get.

A bigger nerf would be to make the line dwarf worse - either 5329 TS GS-AP 50k or maybe even 5338 TS GS-AP 50k (actually I like the 2nd more since it means they aren't as good at soaking up nasty big guys as the positionals.)

[plasmoid]

OooooK - just to clarify:

Lots of suggestions here are about taking something away, but adding something else.
That's tweaking.

I'm looking for a nerf. I.e. taking something away to weaken a team. Or doing something that could be "maybe a nerf, maybe a buff".

Now - you may not agree that dwarfs need a nerf. But if a league commish asked how to nerf them - what should he do?