Need ideas for nerfing undead - round 4: Proposal

[Digger Goreman]

In my experience, a lot of the complaints about facing Undead seem to be ghoul related. Maybe 0-2 ghouls, or Str 2 ghouls? Being a fan of Undead, both make me cry, but the stats do suggest that Undead are a bit overpowered.

Agreed with 0-2 ghouls....

Team would then be:

2 Mummies
2 Wights
2 Ghouls
5 Zombies/Skeletons

[Joemanji]

Yeah - I'm serious.
I don't think inflating their TV by 2-4 (point 3 and 4 coming with thick skull, which isn't nothing) will do anything noteworthy to their win percentage.

But never mind.
I consider the undead team to be a team that some leagues might still find overpowered.
And for those leagues, what would a good house rule be?

Fine. In that case maybe take MB off Mummies. 0-2 Ghouls would destroy the team. Utterly destroy them. Ghouls are the heartbeat of the team. I don't see anyone suggesting WEs lose their wardancers.

But Undead are not overpowered. Have you even tested the LRB6 roster? They didn't need nerfing in leagues - definitely in tournaments, not in leagues. They suffer a lot at higher TVs from Ghoul depletement. They die easily, have no regenerate and are expensive to replace at 70K. Your stats are misleading in a sense because they are skewed towards lower TV games, and obviously there Undead are at their best.

[DoubleSkulls]

Find a way to buff them a little long term but cripple them a little short term.

How about giving Ghouls regeneration but make them 90k? Do you think that would do it?

[Digger Goreman]

I LOVE YOU MAN!!!!

[SillySod]

I don't see anyone suggesting WEs lose their wardancers.

Me

[SillySod]

Find a way to buff them a little long term but cripple them a little short term.

How about giving Ghouls regeneration but make them 90k? Do you think that would do it?

Mmmmm, that looks pretty nice actually. I dont think it will completely fix their problems with peaking at low TR but it should be a good start.

[Digger Goreman]

I don't see anyone suggesting WEs lose their wardancers.

Me

Ditto... big-time....

[Digger Goreman]

0-2 Ghouls would destroy the team. Utterly destroy them. Ghouls are the heartbeat of the team.

I'm not up for nerfing straight Undead, per se, and am finding a hard time, nevertheless, agreeing with the above....

To wit: The suggested team of 6 positionals and 5 zombies (assuming the nerf of 0-2 ghouls), differs from the Necros in only the options of skelletons and switching out Necro Werewolves for Mummies (assuming the necros go with the popular ghoul only option and eschew golems)....

I'm happily willing to entertain any enlightening explanations.... On the surface I don't see it as a team destroyer....

[Joemanji]

Noone is going to eschew FGs in a league, they are awesome. Especially now at 100K.

[Joemanji]

90K Ghouls is a good idea though for short term nerf / long term buff.

[plasmoid]

Yikes. Nerfing seems to be a lot harder than buffing.
I had no ideas before this thread, and it has been inspirational

Joemanji said

But Undead are not overpowered. Have you even tested the LRB6 roster? They didn't need nerfing in leagues - definitely in tournaments, not in leagues. They suffer a lot at higher TVs from Ghoul depletement. They die easily, have no regenerate and are expensive to replace at 70K. Your stats are misleading in a sense because they are skewed towards lower TV games, and obviously there Undead are at their best.

Haven't played them, no. But I've played against them in tabletop, and I'm watching them in the MBBL. And I don't see the +2 TV doing much. And while they may very well lose some power long term, I don't see them crashing all that hard. They may get reduced to decent, but decent ain't bad at all.

And yeah, the stats are skewed towards short term play. I have no problem with that, because all leagues go through short term, but not all even reach long term. And tournaments are short term too. So überpowered short term is a problem, even if the team falters later. IMO.

But more importantly, if undead crash semi-hard long term, that just means that their short term power is significantly higher than the 60% we're seeing in the stats. Yuck.

Right - here are my thoughts, inspired by others
Can't really bump rerolls to 80K, so that leaves messing with players.
And some of them can't be touched without the change rippling into necro or khemri.
So, skellies and zombies can't be changed.
And wight and ghouls can't be changed without a new title.
Mummies, of course, are fair game.

For me, these make my personal list (not prioritized):
1. Mummies smacked with loner (but no other negaskill)
2. Ghouls lose dodge but gain fend. Means this caging team won't have blodgers quite so early. Rename to wraith?
3. Ghouls gain regenerate, price bump to 90K. Rename to Wight runner.
4. Reduce ghouls to ST2. The game needs more weak players. But may make the team too cheap.

Cheers
Martin

Ps, the list of ideas so far is:
Mummies
Lose mighty blow
Lose might blow, gain foul appearance
Replace with Tomb Guards
Replace with Skeletal Ogre
Add loner, bonehead or really stupid

Wights
Lose S access

Ghouls
Lose G, gain P
Reduce to 0-2
Reduce to ST2
Gain regeneration - price bump to 90K
Lose dodge, gain fend.

Zombies
+ Decay

[mattgslater]

There's no reason you can't use a nerf on the Skel as the counterbalance on a tweak to Khemri, and rebalance Necro around a tweak to Zombies.

How about this:

Zombies get Decay
Skels lose Thick Skull
Khemri get 0-2 TGs and 0-2 Mummies
Necro get 60k TRRs, befitting 40k linos + price-break for Decay; Undead still have 40k non-Decay linos, so pay 70k TRRs.

If you think it's not quite enough, the TRR price-break on Necro would offer a fig-leaf for taking S access off Wights without adding new positions. I doubt that this is necessary: Decay Zombies and non-TS Skeletons mean that starting Undead teams really need reserves, which either holds them to two Ghouls or to two TRRs at the outset.

The TRR price break on Necromantics (and possibly the attendant Decay) would also combine well with the 90k Ghouls idea. On a Necromantic team, 90k Regen Ghouls and 60k TRRs would be quite powerful in the long run. That's true on Undead too, but with Undead it's a huge nerf now, while Necro teams frequently start without Ghouls anyway and might actually consider one, even at a premium, if they could take a hit. It would make Undead quite powerful at high TV...

Cornerback: 7/3/3/7 Block, Dodge, Regen, Side Step
Outside LB: 6/3/3/8 Block, Guard, Regen

Getting that on both sides would take maybe 6 or 7 games, still leaving 2 Ghouls at safety (well, they'd be Skels to start), 2 Mummies at ILB, and a rotating corps(e) of Zombies on the line. And it's Winnings-friendly, as Ghouls die a lot and Regen cuts that in half. But it's 80k extra TV, equal to 2 reserve Skels.

[Andromidius]

Skeletal/Zombie Ogres would get my vote as a replacement to the Mummies. And there's no reason why people would have to change their models, just have to use the Bonehead and Loner negatraits.

I would give Ghouls Regenerate though. Leave their name as it is, bump their price up by 10k.

And give Wights Thick Skull for no additional cost.

~Andromidius

[besters]

Slightly different tack, how about deleting Zombies from the roster, leaving them for the necromantic team.

Should give a slightly higher casualty ratio, giving the higher possibility of playing short handed and extra replacement costs for the longer term?

[Grumbledook]

or make zombies 0-2 choice