Need ideas for nerfing undead - round 4: Proposal

[mattgslater]

0-2 "Zombie blockers" suggested by tripleskull might also work. With GS access for 50K. But I'm not sure of the impact, and I'm certainly not sure that this would be an actual nerf. Either way, 10 positionals bothers me a bit.

Cheers
Martin

0-2 Zombies without S access would be an itsy-bitsy nerf. One of your D-ends trades an AV point for MA and Thick Skull: maybe you wouldn't do this normally, but it's not a big deal. Taking off Zombies would be a much bigger nerf.

GS access on a Zombie scares me a little, even though I'd agree that at 50k a Dwarf without Block, Tackle or TS, who trades the AV down to Regen, would be a really bad deal on paper.

10 positionals shouldn't be the intimidating part. 10 is in the range of 8±2, which seems to be the general theme (leaving aside for the moment Humans, Orcs and Chaos; even then, Humans and Chaos are only one off that range... Orcs are a different story).

[Tripleskull]

GS access on a Zombie scares me a little, even though I'd agree that at 50k a Dwarf without Block, Tackle or TS, who trades the AV down to Regen, would be a really bad deal on paper.

I had a zombie who got guard on a double first skill. And untill he died I couldnt stop thinking how great block would have bin. And Im not even a block heavy kind of player.

I see you changed your original post, so Il refrain from replying to that exaggerated statement and keep it to the anekdote.

[Carnis]

Been said before (by me actually) lose Ghouls from undead roster,

Replace with 0-4 Wights

Yes i know its a strange idea but it may just work....

I'd go with that.

The teams fastest runner would be MA6 & they'd lose dodge access. More in line with other bash teams then. And all the players would actually be undead then, ghouls being living and all!

[mattgslater]

I kind of like how Undead are a toolbox of players that would be mediocre, if they didn't have a pair of underpriced (by nature) walls of doom making everybody look like a superstar. I'd be sad to see that change. I'd be happier with a change to the Ghoul to make them more Wight-like.

0-4 Ghoul 6/3/3/7 Dodge, Thick Skull GA/SP 70k
or
0-4 Ghoul 6/3/3/7 Dirty Player, Dodge GA/SP 70k (on the team with the best foulers, no less!)

Or you could raise their price and make them, well, ghoulish.

0-4 Ghoul 6/3/3/7 Dodge, Piling On GA/SP 80k

Or you could make Wights more fearsome, which is a nerf on Ghouls if it's paid-for. This would also end comparisons to the Orc Blitzer: instead of "the Orc is better but cheaper" it's "the Wight is better, the Orc is cheaper."

0-2 Wight 6/3/3/9 Block, Regeneration GS/AP100k

Or you could make Mummies 0-1. This would combo very well with 50k GS access Zombies. Transfered over to Necro, this really weakens the Flesh Golem. That's a tradeoff: if you like the idea more than you dislike splitting the player's statline between two teams or renaming one, then hey. The same issue exists with the toned-down Ghouls and higher-priced Wights, but the PO Ghoul would be a huge asset on a Necromantic team, so if you're looking to buff them.

[Pink Horror]

0-2 Ghouls would destroy the team. Utterly destroy them. Ghouls are the heartbeat of the team. I don't see anyone suggesting WEs lose their wardancers.

I think if you've decided on a nerf, don't be a wimp about it. So this is the answer. 0-2 Ghouls. It's blunt and effective. But will it "destroy" the team? That's obviously an exaggeration.

[Tripleskull]

0-2 Ghouls would destroy the team. Utterly destroy them. Ghouls are the heartbeat of the team. I don't see anyone suggesting WEs lose their wardancers.

I think if you've decided on a nerf, don't be a wimp about it. So this is the answer. 0-2 Ghouls. It's blunt and effective. But will it "destroy" the team? That's obviously an exaggeration.

That would be a reasonable nerf at low tv and for tounaments. The problem is that at tv 200+ undeads are more in need of a buff than a nerf. I certainly woulndt wonna play undead in a long league with onlty 2 ghouls.

[JaM]

Didnt they originally have only 2 ghouls ?
I wouldnt have a problem with it, nor restricting zombs to 0-2 or getting rid of them entierly (from the Undead roster, that is).

[mattgslater]

0-2 Ghouls would hurt less in the long run if you made them 80k and gave them Regenerate. This would combo nicely with +1AV and +10k on Wights to keep ultimate TV up.

[plasmoid]

Hi guys,
we'll be moving to round 2 shortly.
Pink Horror said:

0-2 Ghouls. It's blunt and effective. But will it "destroy" the team? That's obviously an exaggeration.

See, I quite agree. Blunt and effective

Tripleskull said:

The problem is that at tv 200+ undeads are more in need of a buff than a nerf. I certainly woulndt wonna play undead in a long league with onlty 2 ghouls.

But are they really that bad in TV200+?
Sure, they move from sickeningly powerful to mediocre. But think of the many teams that nobody would consider buffing. Do undead really become worse than those?

Mattgslater said:

0-2 Ghouls would hurt less in the long run if you made them 80k and gave them Regenerate. This would combo nicely with +1AV and +10k on Wights to keep ultimate TV up.

Geeez, throw in some more skills and really nerf them.
Seriously - I think small price buffs are only a nerf if you get nothing for them. Or, perhaps, if your team is already reeeeally expensive - and even then I'm not sure. I mean, wood elfs are the most expensive, and arguably they're also the best team.
AV+1 for 10K and regen for 10K is grrreat stuff.

Cheers
Martin

[plasmoid]

Hi Mattgslater,

I kind of like how Undead are a toolbox of players that would be mediocre, if they didn't have a pair of underpriced (by nature) walls of doom making everybody look like a superstar. I'd be sad to see that change.

Me too

0-4 Ghoul 6/3/3/7 Dodge, Thick Skull GA/SP 70k

See, I quite like this idea.
A very small nerf, but a nerf.
With any of these 3, we could rename the necro ghouls into "ghoul runners" and that'd be that.

0-4 Ghoul 6/3/3/7 Dirty Player, Dodge GA/SP 70k (on the team with the best foulers, no less!)

I'd be a little scared of the added bash.
How about sneaky git instead? It's the lesser of the fouling skills.

0-4 Ghoul 6/3/3/7 Dodge, Piling On GA/SP 80k

Even with the price bump, this scares me. Combined with the mighty blow mummies, I feel khemri 2 coming on.

Right. I want to throw in one of me own.
See, I want this to be a nerf, and I think the quick access to blodge is a problem. So I'd go:
0-4 Ghoul 6/3/3/7 Fend, Thick Skull GA/SP 70k

Cheers
Martin

[Tripleskull]

Tripleskull said:

The problem is that at tv 200+ undeads are more in need of a buff than a nerf. I certainly woulndt wonna play undead in a long league with onlty 2 ghouls.

But are they really that bad in TV200+?
Sure, they move from sickeningly powerful to mediocre. But think of the many teams that nobody would consider buffing. Do undead really become worse than those?

Well this is not a matter of science, so I know nothing, but my feel is that undead is one of the worst tier 1 team at tv 200+. I looked it over and there are very few teams I wouldt pick over undead in a 200+ matchup against undead. Could you ever imagine an undead team winning a 50+ games league with the current rules?

[mattgslater]

Mattgslater said:

0-2 Ghouls would hurt less in the long run if you made them 80k and gave them Regenerate. This would combo nicely with +1AV and +10k on Wights to keep ultimate TV up.

Geeez, throw in some more skills and really nerf them.
Seriously - I think small price buffs are only a nerf if you get nothing for them. Or, perhaps, if your team is already reeeeally expensive - and even then I'm not sure. I mean, wood elfs are the most expensive, and arguably they're also the best team.
AV+1 for 10K and regen for 10K is grrreat stuff.

What I'm saying is...
A) Wanna see a Tier 2B team? Give Undead only 4 AG3 positionals.
B) Wanna nerf Undead now but not cripple them later? Give them only 4 AG3 positionals, but make 'em tough. It doesn't make them more powerful at TV100, but it does go a long way toward offsetting the lack of potential ball-carriers at TV200.

[Carnis]

What I'm saying is...
A) Wanna see a Tier 2B team? Give Undead only 4 AG3 positionals.
B) Wanna nerf Undead now but not cripple them later? Give them only 4 AG3 positionals, but make 'em tough. It doesn't make them more powerful at TV100, but it does go a long way toward offsetting the lack of potential ball-carriers at TV200.

0-4 Wight ball carriers, they don't come any tougher then that. Also fixes 2 major "problems" a) 7ma runner in a bashy team b) easy access to 4x blodge/sure hands in a bashy team.

It'd tidy up the roster as well, perhaps together with dropping skeletons. That way you'd have zombie 0-16 + 0-4 wights + 0-2 mummies for a "clean" & nerfed undead roster.

I don't think a nerf is needed though. But imo that's the straightest way of doing it.

[Darkson]

With the proposed dropping or 0-2 of zomboes, what happens to Raise the Dead?

(And anyone that says "drop it" should find another game/hobby - rules like RtD are part of the schtick of BB and should be expanded, not lessened. )

[Grumbledook]

free cheerleaders ;]