Need ideas for nerfing undead - round 4: Proposal

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Wed May 13, 2009 3:56 pm

Carnis wrote: 0-4 Wight ball carriers, they don't come any tougher then that.

Hee hee. Good one.

Wight gets knocked down. Out of 1296, you get 936x nothing, 210x Stun, 120x off, 15x out, 5x MNG, 5x permanent+MNG, 5x dead. Just counting the dead, it's 5x90k=450k lost for every 1296 knockdowns.

Orc Blitzer gets knocked down. Out of 1296, you get 1080x nothing, 126x Stun, 54x off, 18x out, 6x MNG, 6x permanent, 6x dead. 6x80k=480k. [EDIT:]If you have an Apothecary and only use it permanents and deads, it's 2x permanent, 2x dead, 8x MNG and 60x off. 3x80k=240k. You'd buy the Apoth anyway, and it can't be killed, so at most you'd factor the relative value of 50k early winnings into the season to figure out what fraction of 10k to add to the 160k for the Apoth... call it 165k in a short league and 162k in a long one.

Expressed side to side (Wight, Orc w/o Apoth, Orc w/ Apoth on dead or perm)
Nothing: 936/1080/1080
Stun: 210/126/126
Reserves: 30/0/6
KO: 90/54/54
BH: 15/18/18
[EDIT:]
MNG: 5/6/8
Perm: 5/6/2
Dead: 5/6/2
Hard Cost/1296kd: 450k/480k/165k

Otherwise, the two players are identical. Which would you rather have?

The Wight is a sucky deal. If you take away his nimble buddy (a slightly-better deal, but a great combo piece), you need to make him both a better bargain and a better player. +AV is unobtrusive at first, but really matters down the road, which is great for those who think that Undead start too good and eventually fall back into the pack (my perception, and I've heard it from others on this thread). Besides, it seems appropriate for an undead knight: he should be fearsome, and it's ok if he's expensive.

Post by **voyagers_uk** » Wed May 13, 2009 4:01 pm

did you factor in Regen to those numbers?

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Wed May 13, 2009 4:04 pm

Yup.

To be fair, I'd trade -1 MA and no TTM for no RS or Loner on the Troll any day.

Made a bit of a mistake on the apoth, edited (for some reason I was treating it like Regen).

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Wed May 13, 2009 5:55 pm

Hi Mattgslater,

B) Wanna nerf Undead now but not cripple them later? Give them only 4 AG3 positionals, but make 'em tough. It doesn't make them more powerful at TV100, but it does go a long way toward offsetting the lack of potential ball-carriers at TV200.

Here's the thing: Does it do anything short term?
Ghouls with regen and AV9 wights will help the undeveloped team against attrition.
Even with regen ghouls at 90K I'm not sure...
If this "has to happen" as a consequence of 0-2 ghouls, I'd rather take a solution that keeps the 0-4 ghouls.

Just thinking out load here - lifted this team off the thread in "T&TD":
Undead
2 Mummies
2 Wights
3 Ghouls
4 Zombies
3 Rerolls
20K Left to split/save as desired

With the new costs, what could you get:
2 mummies (220K)
2 wights (AV9) (100K)
2 Ghouls (180K)
5 zombies (200K)
2 ReRolls (cash for a 6th zombie and 20K left)
So - with regen ghouls for 80K, they could have 3 rerolls. With 90K regen ghouls, they'd need to make cuts somewhere.
That makes it 90K regen ghouls for me.

Cheers
Martin

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Wed May 13, 2009 6:15 pm

Hi all - HELP!
The list has grown massive, and I need to trim it to 5-6 favourites.
So please:
Post here indicating the handful of nerfs that you like the best! Please.

The list:
Mummies
1a 0-1 mummy
1b Lose mighty blow
1c Lose might blow, gain foul appearance
1d Replace with Tomb Guards
1e Replace with Skeletal Ogre
1f Add loner
1g Add bonehead

Wights
2a Lose S access
2b Up wights to 0-4, but drop ghouls from the roster
2c: 0-2 Wight 6/3/3/9 Block, Dauntless, Regenerate 110k
2d: 0-2 Wight 6/3/3/8 Block, Disturbing Presence, Regenerate 110k
2e: 0-2 Wight 6/3/3/8 Block, Disturbing Presence, Regenerate, Thixk Skull 120k

Ghouls
3a Lose G, gain P
3b Reduce to ST2
3c Rename to wight runner: 90K 7337 regen, dodge GA
3d Rename to wight runner: 90K 7337 regen, fend GA
3e Rename necro ghoul Ghoul Runner. Undead ghoul (70K) 6337 dodge, thick skull
3f Rename necro ghoul Ghoul Runner. Undead ghoul (70K) 6337 dodge, sneaky git
3g Rename necro ghoul Ghoul Runner. Undead ghoul (70K) 6337 fend, thick skull
3h Reduce to 0-2
3i Reduce to 0-2, but gain regen (90K) and Wights gain AV9 (100K)
3j 0-4 ghouls 7338 GA 70K
3k Reduce to 0-2, but gain regen (90K) and Wights gain AV9+TS (110K)
3l 100k AV9 Wights, 0-2 Piling On Ghoul at 90k

Zombies
4a + Decay
4b Lose zombies entirely.
4c Zombies replaced with 0-2 zombie blockers (50K) 4328 regen (GS access)

Cheers
Martin

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Wed May 13, 2009 6:18 pm

OK - here are my personal favourites, in no particular order:

1f add loner (probably a bit too harsh!)
3d Rename to wight runner: 90K 7337 regen, fend GA
3e Rename necro ghoul Ghoul Runner. Undead ghoul (70K) 6337 dodge, thick skull
3g Rename necro ghoul Ghoul Runner. Undead ghoul (70K) 6337 fend, thick skull
3g Rename necro ghoul Ghoul Runner. Undead ghoul (70K) 7338
4b Lose zombies entirely.

Cheers
Martin

JaM · Post by **JaM** » Wed May 13, 2009 6:18 pm

1f,
3h,
3i,
4b,
4c.

Tripleskull · Post by **Tripleskull** » Wed May 13, 2009 6:25 pm

plasmoid wrote: 4c Zombies replaced with 0-2 zombie blockers (50K) 4329 regen (GS access)

Maby that statline is right, but with AV 9 they should cost more...

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Wed May 13, 2009 6:33 pm

Whoops. As per your suggestion, they're AV8

Tripleskull · Post by **Tripleskull** » Wed May 13, 2009 6:42 pm

2b, 3d, 4c

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Wed May 13, 2009 7:12 pm

Here I go throwing mud in the water.

2c: 0-2 Wight 6/3/3/9 Block, Dauntless, Regenerate 110k
2d: 0-2 Wight 6/3/3/8 Block, Disturbing Presence, Regenerate 110k
2e: Add Thick Skull, +10k to Wight from 3i or 2d. He's skeletal, right?

3j: 0-4 Ghoul 7/3/3/8 GA/PS 70k
3k: 100k AV9 Wights, 0-2 Piling On Ghoul at 90k

For what's up there so far, I like 1a, 3i, and 4a. I don't hate 1f so much as I hate Loner in general. If you do that, maybe make them 110k and follow with a minor nerf, like 0-2 Zombies.

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Wed May 13, 2009 9:10 pm

Dude. Seriously. I'm trying to trim the list, not expand it!
Oh well - I'll add 'em, but that's the last of it. You've had 6 days

Oh hey, I like 3j a lot.
Less thrilled with the others. If piling on lots of skills for cheap is a nerf, then I hope you won't try to fix bull centaurs or wardancers

Cheers
Martin

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Wed May 13, 2009 10:43 pm

Dauntless is not very good on a team with two MA3 Big Guys. 110k is a terrible price to pay if put into the right context, even if it's on a solid player.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Thu May 14, 2009 5:12 am

Had an epiphany rereading Martin's post about team costing from Wednesday morning (well, Wednesday morning over here).

Here's your question, Martin. Is your objective to keep teams from going for 7 positionals and 3RR, or to keep them from going for 6 positionals and 3RR? Remember, Undead at 5 positionals run the same problem as Dwarfs missing a Runner or Blitzer....

3TRR=21
2 Mummies = 24
2 Wights = 18
2 Ghouls = 14
5 S/Zs = 20
Sub: 97, or enough to grab a 3rd Ghoul off of a S/Z.

So a 20k price increase between Ghouls and Wights keeps them to 6 positionals or 2RR. If you're going to knock them down to 5 positionals (really, down to 2RR), you should give them some bang for their buck. Give them 110k Wights or 90k Ghouls, but make 'em good. 'Cause otherwise they will really really suck. That's my thinking with the Dauntless Wight, or the Disturbing Presence Wight. If Wight+Ghoul goes from 160k to 190k, then it's 380+240=620 positionals, plus 200 linos = 820, leaving 180k. That's 2 TRRs and a reserve. If you go to 200k (110k+90k), that's 2 TRRs and 20k banked, or 3 TRRs and only one Wight (which might be quite feasible if Ghouls were actually tough). If you go to 180k (100k+80k or 90k each), that's 2 TRRs, a reserve and 20k banked.

So W+G=180 or 200. If it's 110k and 90k, and Ghouls are kept 0-4, then that's 120k extra TV the team is carrying. For that, they should get something special with disproportionate long-term value, and can still consider it a nerf (the same is true if they "save" the 100k for going to 0-4 positionals). For 110k and 70k to get to 180k, with 0-4 Ghouls, it's only 40k extra, like they were carrying one more lino. But if part of this is toning down the Ghoul, the costing issue alone (loss of a TRR) is a major shift. For that, the Wight should be a lot better at the same price.

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Thu May 14, 2009 7:12 am

I have no specific route planned out.
I just want the team weakened.
That could be
1) a less "maxed out" starting roster due to costs.
2) Or it could be that you get weaker players for the same cost.

Both have their problems though:
#1 really ain't so harsh, because for a side that wins a lot early on, cash flows freely, so you can buy your more expensive and also better players. Also, I'm not sure how much weaker the team would be with 1 less positional on the starting roster, if the positionals that they do have have been improved.
#2 is IMO the best solution in the short run, but could be problematic for a developed undead team.

Either way,
I don't agree that dauntless is a weak skill on wights. Not at all. Let's leave it at that.
I do very much like your idea of 7338 ghouls! Weaker straight out of the box, and will take longer to get blodge, but the extra AV is a pretty good skill choice, and will help them survive longer.

Cheers
Martin

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Need ideas for nerfing undead - round 4: Proposal

Which (short term) nerf suits undead the best?