Going Down because of spiked ball

[tenwit]

Not knocked down. Knocked Down. It's one of those rules-lawery distinctions that you have to be aware of lest you get into a haranguing match at the games convention. Like the difference between a Block Action and throwing a block.

How about this argument: the ball didn't stab the guy. It just caused a few dice rolls which follow the rules in the Stab skill. Failing to pick up a bouncing ball normally doesn't cause a turnover, why would having your hand sliced while failing to pick up a bouncing ball?

That's not my argument; I want it to cause a turnover. I'm just aware of the dangers of rules lawyers. I don't know enough BB coaches to simply refuse to play with some of them, so I want the rules to be such that they can't rules-lawyer me into hating them.

[Lictor]

I know this is a tangent from this thread but out of curiosity in a tourney scene, if player A refuses to play player B because of lawyering, and the TO can do nothing to quell the stupidity, what happens?

[Xeterog]

Successful stabs knock people down. I don't even care what the rules say, it's just ridiculous to say otherwise.

hmm, really..lets look at stab:

Stab (Extraordinary)
A player with this skill is armed with something very good at stabbing,
slashing or hacking up an opponent, like sharp fangs or a trusty dagger.
This player may attack an opponent with their stabbing attack instead of
throwing a block at them. Make an unmodified Armour roll for the victim.
If the score is less than or equal to the victim’s Armour value then the
attack has no effect. If the score beats the victim’s Armour value then
they have been wounded and an unmodified Injury roll must be made. If
Stab is used as part of a Blitz Action, the player cannot continue moving
after using it. Casualties caused by a stabbing attack do not count for
Star Player points.

no mention of whether the player is Knocked Down or Placed Prone.

This probably needs to be clarified (if it can be) in LRB6.

[halinn]

We could also look at the text for the injuries, no?

Stunned – Leave the player on the pitch, but
turn them face-down. All face-down players are
turned face up at the end of their team's next
turn, even if a turnover takes place. Note that a
player may not turn face up on the turn they are
Stunned. Once face-up they may stand up on
any subsequent turn using the normal rules.

Unless the rules state otherwise, any player that is Knocked
Down may be injured.

So clearly, injury is separated from being knocked down. Also, getting stunned just says to leave the player on the pitch, face-down.

[Smeborg]

This strikes me as an extreme case of rules lawyering nonsense.

[Grumbledook]

I know this is a tangent from this thread but out of curiosity in a tourney scene, if player A refuses to play player B because of lawyering, and the TO can do nothing to quell the stupidity, what happens?

the TO should declare what the rules interpretation is and the players should accept that and get on with the game

[DoubleSkulls]

How many tournaments allow cards anyway? Even the Australian progression tournaments (i.e. normal league rules) style tournies don't allow them.

[Toby Wardman]

How many tournaments allow cards anyway? Even the Australian progression tournaments (i.e. normal league rules) style tournies don't allow them.

Relatively insignificant I know, but our Yorkshire tournaments are progression ones and we allow cards.

I speak as someone who's had a particularly nasty spiked-ball experience. Thanks to very clever positioning by the opposing coach and some bizarre dice rolls, the ball killed both a Skink and a Saurus in the same match, and badly hurt another Skink. The ball actually topped the casualty count for the game, much to everyone's amusement, and has since passed into legend in our division...

[Xeterog]

This strikes me as an extreme case of rules lawyering nonsense.

I don't think it's extreme. The LRB 5 rules make a distinction between Block Action (capitalized) and a block (not capitalized) (and this is just one example).

The rules clearly do not state that an injury is a cause for a turnover. Maybe it should be, but it is not in the list of turnovers. (This is similar to a failing a catch roll is not a turnover, except the catch is noted that it is not automatically a turnover).

It's been established that the list of turnovers on page 7 is an exclusive list. This list is the ONLY way to cause a turnover, there is no other way to cause a turnover. If it is not on the list, it is not a turnover. Being injured is not on the list (tho things that normally cause you to be injured are on the list, such as being Knocked Down).

The only grey area I see in this is whether a successful stab Knocks a player down or places them prone, as that is not explicitly stated in the stab rules. It would be so much clearer if stab read:

Stab (Extraordinary)
A player with this skill is armed with something very good at stabbing,
slashing or hacking up an opponent, like sharp fangs or a trusty dagger.
This player may attack an opponent with their stabbing attack instead of
throwing a block at them. Make an unmodified Armour roll for the victim.
If the score is less than or equal to the victim’s Armour value then the
attack has no effect. If the score beats the victim’s Armour value
then they have been Knocked Down and wounded. Make an
unmodified Injury roll. If Stab is used as part of a Blitz Action, the
player cannot continue moving after using it. Casualties caused by a
stabbing attack do not count forStar Player points.

[Schmee]

How many tournaments allow cards anyway?

If a chainsaw player attacks, rolls a 1 and their chainsaw kicks back, injuring them, you would have the same situation as with the spiked ball mentioned above – a player on the moving team is injured but not explicitly Knocked Down (this could happen in any tournament).

I agree that saying "Sorry, that's not a turnover" would be cheesy and wrong though!

[Tripleskull]

What is the ruling on the chainsaw exatly? Im getting confused now.

in the chainsaw skill description it says:

If the roll beats the victim’s Armour
value then the victim is Knocked Down and injured – roll on the Injury
table.

So a kick back is a turnover, only if the chainsaw beats the armour? On the other hand it says Knocked Down in the case of beating the armour, so in that case the turnover is clear.

As the rules are I wouldnt consider the spiked ball incident a turnover, and I really dont think it should be. Like a fanatic hitting a team member already on the ground shouldnt be.

[Ullis]

I must say I'm really surprised by the fact that this is considered a bad form of rules lawyering. As pointed out, the rules are extremely clear on the fact and do not need any sort of twisting or bending to sort out this case. There's a very clear distinction between getting "Knocked down" and getting "Injured". I don't even see anything illogical about it since an injury caused by a TTM or a Ball & Chain hitting prone players do not cause a turnover either.

And yes, a chainsaw kick back which breaks armour causes a Knock down and consequenly a turnover. That's stated in the rules concerning the Chainsaw skill. If it does not break armour, then nothing happens.

If the roll beats the victim’s Armour value then the victim is Knocked Down and injured – roll on the Injury table. If the roll fails to beat the victim’s Armour value then the attack has no effect.

[Tripleskull]

I agree with you Ullis. But the rules could be a little easier to understand/remember.

As it is a bomb hitting a prone teammate is a turnover, a fanatic hitting the same player is not. And as diskussed the spiked ball, chain saw and TTM has are cases of there own. Not that there are nessesarily problems in the rules - just a bit of dificulty understanding them.

There could be more of a common ground or at least a more explicit destinction betwine knock down and injury.

[Jural]

Sorry, but am I only one who thinks that is rules lawyering nonsense?

No, but this is one that could easily be bent by a good rules lawyer

[PubBowler]

Relatively insignificant I know, but our Yorkshire tournaments are progression ones and we allow cards.

I think Ian meant NAF ranked tournies.