Need ideas for nerfing undead - round 4: Proposal

[Andromidius]

1e, 3h, 4a. In that order.

~Andromidius

[mattgslater]

Variant on 3i:
0-2 Wight 6/3/3/9 Block, Regenerate 100k
0-2 Ghoul 7/3/3/8 Dodge 90k

So upgrades from Zombies cost 5, 6 and 8, with TRRs at 7. That makes for some interesting decisions. Start only 5 positionals, and you're either missing your best deal (Mummy) or short a ball-handler. Start all 6, and you've got to make do with 2 TRRs. Frankly, that feels kind of Dwarfy... if Dwarfs had sucky linos.

[Carnis]

The Wight is a sucky deal. If you take away his nimble buddy (a slightly-better deal, but a great combo piece), you need to make him both a better bargain and a better player. +AV is unobtrusive at first, but really matters down the road, which is great for those who think that Undead start too good and eventually fall back into the pack (my perception, and I've heard it from others on this thread). Besides, it seems appropriate for an undead knight: he should be fearsome, and it's ok if he's expensive.

Give orcs 4 ghouls & then the wights become really sucky, agreed. The teams need to be considered as a team though and not as individual players. That being said, if we dropped ghouls from the roster then wights would probably need to be a bit better. Too late for new ideas now, but I guess adding thick skull for no extra price could have worked.

[mattgslater]

The Wight is a sucky deal. If you take away his nimble buddy (a slightly-better deal, but a great combo piece), you need to make him both a better bargain and a better player. +AV is unobtrusive at first, but really matters down the road, which is great for those who think that Undead start too good and eventually fall back into the pack (my perception, and I've heard it from others on this thread). Besides, it seems appropriate for an undead knight: he should be fearsome, and it's ok if he's expensive.

Give orcs 4 ghouls & then the wights become really sucky, agreed. The teams need to be considered as a team though and not as individual players. That being said, if we dropped ghouls from the roster then wights would probably need to be a bit better. Too late for new ideas now, but I guess adding thick skull for no extra price could have worked.

Exactly my point. The Wight as-is isn't a problem 'cause he's got 4 Ghouls backing him up. If you're going to weaken the deal on Ghouls, particularly if you're going to increase their number, the Wight should be a better bargain as a player (fluffy too: Wights are supposed to scare you, and a lino with Block doesn't do the position title justice). If you want to make it a net nerf, give them less convenient pricing.

Ghouls with regen and AV9 wights will help the undeveloped team against attrition.

Yeah, but not as much as a third Ghoul will. Essentially, with 100k Wights and 90k Ghouls, the starting team trades that 3rd Ghoul and a TRR for a reserve lino and a reduced chance of calamity (and yes, losing one of 4 AG3 positionals who cost 90-100k is a calamity). Massive nerf. Humongous. Even if the new Wight and Ghoul are better players (AV8 Ghoul, AV9 Wight or Disturbing Presence Wight), it's still a huge nerf now. At 0-4 Ghouls, it's also a net 100k added to final TV, which goes a long way toward mitigating the superior positionals. At 0-2 Ghouls it's +60k.

[Carnis]

My favourite nerfs:

1a 0-1 mummy
2b Up wights to 0-4, but drop ghouls from the roster
3h Reduce ghouls to 0-2
3j 0-4 ghouls 7338 GA 70K
4a Zombies + Decay

Disturbing presence (undead cause fear) wights sound cool, but I wouldn't know how to price them.

Possibly add removing skeletons from the roster.

3j could be improved with regeneration (& price bump).. Getting reset all over again in your ghoul front is bad enough as is in the current UD team, getting reset to 0 skills & AV8 is worse.

[plasmoid]

Thanks for your feedback.

I'll be going to the poll in a few days, so by all means, please pick your favourites from the first post.

Cheers
Martin

[mattgslater]

Sorry... can't stop it.

0-2 Wight 5/3/3/9 Block, Regenerate, GS/AP 80k
0-4 Ghoul 7/3/3/8 Sneaky Git GA/PS 80k

This would be a buff to Necromantic too. MA6 is a big deal on the Wight, but not as much as the price drop or the extra AV... on a roster with Werewolves. But on Undead, it means they're not much of a scoring option despite their AG3. Essentially, he occupies the midpoint between the Dwarf and the Orc, which is about right given the team's other values. The Ghoul's extra 10k and -Dodge hurts Undead a lot, but does little to Necro, who would probably field no more than one at 1M anyway.

[Digger Goreman]

Ghouls:
3h Reduce to 0-2
3i Reduce to 0-2, but gain regen (90K) and Wights gain AV9 (100K)

These are the only ones I like....

Mind you, if you just have to do something....

[Glowworm]

My favourite nerfs:

1a 0-1 mummy
2b Up wights to 0-4, but drop ghouls from the roster
3h Reduce ghouls to 0-2
3j 0-4 ghouls 7338 GA 70K
4a Zombies + Decay.

Pretty close to my feelings (& yes i do play the current undead) However what if:

0-1 Mummy he already a great big guy (no loner/BH/really stupid) maybe give him disturbing presence but otherwise as is...

0-4 wights (as I have argued on other threads) as is (or maybe slight price increase)

No ghouls (let nerco have them (4?)

0-2 Zombies (bit of a no brainer (Zombie!!) Re-gen/ Decay/ Mighty blow) price ? You do the maths maybe 60K

Not big on decay....however, you can get a "free" Zombie so if decay cripples one you can (Possibly) replace him at the end of a match (you decide which one you "drop" in post match if you have more than 2.

Zombies are created (fluffwise) to forfill a specific task, not to last an eternity (like a mummy)

as a side issue I will be taking undead to the GT and think i may only take 1 mummy & 2 zombies (+ positionals) to get an extra R/R i think 2 players taking nearly 25% of team costs is excessive (so if you want an easy win find me on the lower tables... )

[SillySod]

I have some definate favourite options:

a) 0-4 wights but 0-2 ghouls (wights are less useful in the short term but perhaps better in the long term)

b) Replace ghoul entry with 0-4 ghouls 7337 dodge, regen GA/SP 90k

c) Replace zombie entry with 0-16 zombies 4328 regen GS/AP 60k (perhaps 0-2 or 0-4 zombies but to be honest you're paying a real premium to get many on a starting team)

All those options make young undead teams less powerful but give them a bit more longterm potential.

[Joemanji]

Making Zombies 0-2 or 0-4 and keeping all stats the same is the simplest option.

If you really want to fiddle, maybe calm Mummies down a bit. Lose MB or gain Loner and G access. This would be a huge nerf, since GFIs are vital for a Mummy to be effective.

[stashman]

Horror Team (Undead + Necromantic as one)

0-2 Mummy (from the Mummy movie)
0-2 Flesh Golem (from the Frankenstein movie)
0-2 Werewolf (from the Werewolf movie)
0-2 Wight (instead of Vampires )
0-2 Ghoul (maybe not include them or from the Creature from the Black Lagoon)
0-16 Zombie (from all great zombie movies)
Rerolls 70K

No skeletons, keep them in Khemri

[Joemanji]

That would be a great team. Hardly a nerf.

[mattgslater]

Mummies and Werewolves on the same roster? Eek. At full development, that would be insane. Expensive... but insane.

What if you made the Were, Mummy and FG all 0-1? You'd need a way to get Vampires onto this team...

[stashman]

Take away the ghouls and the team will be slow....