Diving Tackle (DT) and Break Tackle (BT)

[Gimli]

Apologies if this has been asked before, but ...

* Moving player dodges with a player with BT
* The player being dodged away from has DT
* If the moving player uses BT, DT will not cause the dodge to fail. If the moving player doesn't use BT, DT will cause the dodge to fail.

Question: who has to declare the use of their skills first? This makes a big difference to the player with DT as if he has to go first, he will be prone, and the dodge will succeed (albeit having "used up" the moving player's BT for that turn.) On the other hand, if the BT player has to declare first, the DT player can remain standing. The BT still can dodge, but he's used up his BT.

In our league we are having a debate, and the majority seems to be leaning to making the DT player go first, even though he is on the inactive team.

Thoughts?

[mubo]

"....Action or moves a square. If both coaches want to use a skill
to affect the same Action or move, then the coach whose turn is
taking place must use his skill first."

from LRB5.

So BT first.

[GalakStarscraper]

I'll be curious to see Ian's judgment on this. But just because the active coach goes first does not mean he does not get to respond third per my ruling on this that I've made in the past.

Active player with ST 5 and AG 2 rolls a 5 for a dodge.

Active player is asked if he wants to use skills ... "nope ... all good here".

Opposing player says "I'll use Diving Tackle"

Active player goes ... "okay then I'll use Break Tackle"

Opposing player goes prone and the active player uses Break Tackle to get away but doesn't have it to use later the same turn.

This is how I've always ruled that this works. There is no reason to use Break Tackle on a successful roll and there is nothing in the rules that forces you to use a skill because of what your opponent "might" do. Finally while the rulebook says which coach must declare first ... it does not say that the declarations of skills cannot go back to the active player after the opposing player declares.

Galak

[SBG]

I do think that in this case, it's the non-moving coach who has to make a call first. Otherwise, the dodge is succesfull.

Don't you think?

Fred

[Gimli]

Galak,

I'm surprised by your intepretation - I would have thought a plain reading of the rule at p. 14 would have required the moving/BT coach to declare first. The whole idea of making someone go first in declaring skill choice, which is what the rule at p. 14 requires, suggests someone will go second, thus forcing the first player to respond to, or anticipate, what skills the second player might elect to use.

If the rule at p. 14 doesn't require the moving/BT coach to declare first, in what circumstances would the rule ever apply?

[mubo]

Agree with Gimli, that's how I had interpreted it.

Otherwise the moving player doesn't have to decide to use BT until after the opposing player has declared DT, which seems to go against the rule?

Either way, guess a clarification/FAQ couldn't hurt.

[daloonieshaman]

In this example the active player (w/Bt) does not have to decide to use BT until AFTER the dodge roll fails
so he rolls and suceeds
defense throws Dt
offense declares use of BT (now that his dodge roll has been modified)



so the strong guy with BT uses the skill and gets away

5. You can choose to use a skill that affects a dice roll after rolling the
dice

[Digger Goreman]

Could be wrong... but agree with Daloonie!

[Gimli]

Digger/Daloonie,

While I understand what you are saying, I am having trouble relating it to p. 14, which says "If both coaches want to use a skill to affect the same Action ..., then the coach whose turn it is must use his skill first".

In your example, each coach wants to use their skill to "affect the same Action", in this case, a Dodge. The inactive player wants to use DT. The active player wants to use BT. Both, if used, will affect the Dodge result. But someone has to "go first".

You seem to be saying that the inactive player has to choose - which seems to be the opposite of what p. 14 says.

I'd ask the same question I asked Galak - can give me an example of when the active player does have to choose before the inactive player?

[tenwit]

can give me an example of when the active player does have to choose before the inactive player?

Player with Block bothdowns a Player with Wrestle (no Block). If moving Player uses Block, Wrestle Player will use Wrestle. If moving Player doesn't use Block, Wrestle Player won't use Wrestle, forcing the turnover. A bit contrived, but it does happen.. usually when all the other Players on the moving team have already gone, and the moving coach doesn't mind making an armour roll so long as his Player gets a chance at a CAS...

[daloonieshaman]

the rule on page 14 does not apply in this situtation as it is a
different reaction in the example given
the player has successfully dodged
the DT player decides to use his skill to make the dodge unsuccessful
the dodger then trumps that with Bt

[tenwit]

That doesn't work as an argument.. it might be correct, but you give no reason. What about the situation means that the rule on p14 doesn't apply? The rule just says that for a given Action or move, the moving coach decides first. It doesn't say that reacting to the non-moving coach's decision is a separate action: in fact, it pretty much says the opposite.

[Darkson]

Rightly or wrongly, I'd go with dalononieshaman's intepretation, and would house-rule it to that if it was decided otherwise.

The only way I'd allow it to force BT to go first was if in doing so, it also foced the DT skill to be used.

[Smeborg]

I am inclined to agree with Galak's interpretation. It is a common sense ruling which works well in practice.

[cyagen]

The interpretation of Galak makes sense in LRB5.

The other interpretation was OK in the 3ed were BT substituted AG with ST for all dodges.

A specific rule always override a general one. So I'm with Galak on that.