Diving Tackle (DT) and Break Tackle (BT)

[DoubleSkulls]

I agree with galak. If you want to "force" the use of BT you have to use DT. BT only kicks in when needed.

[Xeterog]

Digger/Daloonie,

While I understand what you are saying, I am having trouble relating it to p. 14, which says "If both coaches want to use a skill to affect the same Action ..., then the coach whose turn it is must use his skill first".

The thing is, the coach with BT does not WANT to use the skill on this action..in fact, he doesn't need to use BT at all unless someone uses DT.

[daloonieshaman]

That doesn't work as an argument.. it might be correct, but you give no reason. What about the situation means that the rule on p14 doesn't apply? The rule just says that for a given Action or move, the moving coach decides first. It doesn't say that reacting to the non-moving coach's decision is a separate action: in fact, it pretty much says the opposite.

pg 14

Some skills are also used in the opponent’s turn. In this case you may choose to use the skill after an opposing player carries out
an Action or moves a square. If both coaches want to use a skill
to affect the same Action or move, then the coach whose turn is
taking place must use his skill first.

The players dodges successfully (does not require the use of a skill so "passes")
The defender announces the use of his skill in this case DT
The Offense then announces his skill use in this case BT

The use of a skill can happen any time before of after a die is cast

This does not say that you or I am correct or wrong just making it clear as per pg 14 of the rules

as the defender is choosing to use a skill during an opponents turn the desire is announced by the defense and the offense in this case has a responsive skill. The offense's skill acts first giving him an ag 5, then the Defense has to DT as the skill use was announced. The dodging player gets away (anyway) as 2 (from ag 5) + 2 (from DT) equals 4 and he rolled a 5 (in the thread example) leaving the DT player prone

If the defense does not declare the use of DT then the Offense gets away and could use BT later in the move (if needed)

[Gimli]

Ok, there seems to be a consensus that the moving player always gets the last choice, despite p. 14. Does that mean p. 14 is in error? But it has to mean something?

(Tenwit's Block/Wrestle example - I think in that case the moving player is actually choosing not to use a skill, Block, so not sure that applies.)

We have the cream of the BB world on this site, so somebody has to have actually seen the rule at p. 14 used in some circumstance to resolve some issue - anyone?

[DoubleSkulls]

I have a horrible suspicion that sentence is left over from 3rd ed when you had a lot more out of turn movement (particularly the old Diving Tackle).

All the instances I can think of where it might have applied (Shadowing, Pass Block vs Dump Off) etc have pretty much been removed.

[GalakStarscraper]

I have a horrible suspicion that sentence is left over from 3rd ed when you had a lot more out of turn movement (particularly the old Diving Tackle).

All the instances I can think of where it might have applied (Shadowing, Pass Block vs Dump Off) etc have pretty much been removed.

I believe looking over the rulebook that he is correct. We've changed the timing on a lot of the skills to the point that that sentence is probably a left over from 3rd that no longer has any real meaning.

As such deleting that is a clarification (not a rules change) ... something we could do for LRB 6.0 to make this more clear.

Galak

[civilian_number_two]

I would say hooray to that.

Here's one app I can think of:

I have Block and Juggernaut, you have Wrestle. I hit you, then screw up and choose the Both down result because I know you don't have Block. You look at me like I'm stupid and say "duh, Wrestle." Since we have both selected our skills, I cannot now go back and respond by selecting Juggernaut instead, thereby turning the Block into a Push.

That's the only example I can think of where order of skill use matters, if in every other case the active player is allowed to respond.

If anyone thinks that even in this case the active player can say "oh, like for sure. What an idiot! I'll use Juggernaut" then there is no use for the rule on p.14.

I think the rule on p.14 ought to be removed.

[tenwit]

Unfortunately your example doesn't work, since Juggernaut cancels Wrestle, if you select Both Down, his Wrestle doesn't work, you get to use Block, he goes down. You don't have to select the convert-to-push part of Jugg to cancel Wrestle.

[Gimli]

I'm assuming we are talking about a Blitz, otherwise Juggernaut doesn't apply.

I think the moving player has to elect to use the Juggernaut skill before it cancels Wrestle.

But if I understood the earlier comments, the Moving player always gets the last choice.

So the moving player would choose Both Down. The Inactive player says he'll use Wrestle. At this point the active player can say, OK, then I'll use Juggernaut and cancel Wrestle, thereby causing the Wrestler to go Prone. Note that turning the Both down to a Push via Juggernaut is a choice the moving player has. He can just cancel Wrestle and take the knockdown, or at least that is how I understand the rule.

[khudzlin]

the cancelling of fend, stand firm and wrestle is automatic: "[the blitzed player] may not use [...]"

[Xeterog]

Even if it did not cancel wrestle, you can't 'surprise' someone with a skill.. Skills are not hidden...if I didn't think you had wrestle, and you go to use it, I could very well say, "Oh, didn't realize that was the guy with wrestle, I'll do X instead." You aren't 'locked' in to a skill in this situation.

[Grumbledook]

Even if it did not cancel wrestle, you can't 'surprise' someone with a skill.. Skills are not hidden...if I didn't think you had wrestle, and you go to use it, I could very well say, "Oh, didn't realize that was the guy with wrestle, I'll do X instead." You aren't 'locked' in to a skill in this situation.

+1

[Darkson]

Even if it did not cancel wrestle, you can't 'surprise' someone with a skill.. Skills are not hidden...if I didn't think you had wrestle, and you go to use it, I could very well say, "Oh, didn't realize that was the guy with wrestle, I'll do X instead." You aren't 'locked' in to a skill in this situation.

+1

-1 (sort of).

I always play (and have it played against me) that I should be checking what skills players have (either by asking, or by checking the roster). If I don't ask, then it's my fault.

Plus civilian did say he s ay he "screws up" and choose both down.

[daloonieshaman]

I got burned with the the other nite
I asked the skills and mixed up players and I was "that other guy has block not this one" he showed me the roster again and I ate it

[Gimli]

Ok, I'm getting confused here.

In the DT/BT example the consensus was that the moving player with BT didn't have to use it until the inactive player declares the use of DT and causes the dodge to fail.

However, in the Juggernaut/Wrestle example, the consensus seems to be the exact opposite. As I read these posts once the inactive player with Wrestle causes the Block to fail (remember, until the inactive player declares the use of Wrestle the Both Down causes the player with Wrestle to be knocked down), the player with Juggernaut cannot then declare the use of Juggernaut to cancel Wrestle and/or turn the Both Down into a Push.

If p. 14 is in error, and we seem to have very good authority to that effect now, and the moving player always gets to go last and react to the inactive player's skill use, I don't see why the moving player can't declare the use of Juggernaut after the inactive player declares the use of Wrestle.

Galak, care to comment?