Need ideas for nerfing dwarfs - round 3: Poll

[Otake]

Hi.
Only thoughts :
- +10k TRR is great imho.

- Reducing the number of players having both Block AND Tackle is good too. I think it's removing Block from Longbeards that will hurt them most.

- Removing Block from Longbeards will set them more apart from Norses, which is good

- giving them Wrestle is not very "fluffy" with players with short arms, but I agree it's not a very solid reason. Besides, it's why I never loved Tackle on them. Grab instead ?

- adding +1 MA to Longbeards : they will no longer be the slowest team, and it will be a great boost. Not a good idea for me.

- removing S access from Longbeards : a good idea to consider. It's quite an advantage in a league.


So, my 2 cents :
- remove Block and Tackle and S access from Longbeards. Add Stand Firm ("as unmovable as their mountains"). Price : 50k
it's a huge nerf, so (and every dwarf coach cheers : )

- GIVE THEM BACK SECRET WEAPONS !!!!

Remember, BB dwarfs love to fill the pitch with dynamite and deadly machines !

(and it will allow us old BB nerds to put our old 2nd ed dwarf chainsaw models back on the pitch, HAHA ! )

and it will give them more opportunities to spend their TRR (so you don't need to increase their cost)


Of course, you've got a totally different way of nerfing Dwarves : change the Block/Dodge/Tackle rules !!!
But it's a totally different topic....

[Jural]

A 4 3 3 9 Thick Skull 50k G/SAP or a 4 3 3 9 Thick Skull Block 60k G/SAP would be interesting, especially paired with 0-4 current longbeards. I don't think the extra AG is all that useful, but it does open up some good options for the dwarves.

I guess it's not that far from the current ruleset (really only changes your 11th man and your bench) which is good. Of course it gives the dwarves some team building options and easier deathroller access... but I'm not concerned about that, the current roster is already excellent at TV management.

In a league that was suffering from the dwarf plague, this seems like it could work.

[plasmoid]

Hi Jural,
like you, I think that AG3 on a MA4 piece isn't all that useful. Which was the point
If zombies were AG3 for 60K, I'm not sure they'd be all that popular.

4 3 3 9 Thick Skull Block 60k G/SAP

To me, that's 70K.
Compare to the 80K blitzer.

Sillysod indicated that my suggestion wouldn't be much of a nerf (if at all).
I think it would be. But not a big one.
And it was inspired by the poll.
Personally, I might go a bit further, replacing block with wrestle on the linemen.
Or cutting S-access on the linemen.
Then again - S on everyone is so very dwarfish for me.

Cheers
Martin

[plasmoid]

PS, I think the AG3 might be less useful on the linemen than MA5 would.
Cheers
Martin

[Carnis]

Heh - here's my shot at a dwarf team then

Code: Select all

Dwarf team
0- 16 Lineman 70K 4339 GS Thick Skull, Block
0- 2  Blocker 70K 4329 GS Thick Skull, Block, Tackle
0- 2  Blitzer 80K 5339 GS Thick Skull, Block
0- 2  Runner  80K 6338 GP Thick Skull, Sure Hands
0- 2  Slayer  90K 5328 GS Thick Skull, Juggernaut, Frenzy, Dauntless
ReRolls 50K, DeathRoller as normal.

If you replace longbeards with a lineman position, that still gets

1) Thick skull
2) AV9
3) Block

You aren't really changing the whole team all that much. I feel the +AG would actually outweigh the tackle in that the AG3 linemen would be easier to level up after an mvp (hand off TD or a comp).

I'd possibly try going towards an orc lineman: 4 3 3 9 GS Thick skull 50k-60k. Can't drop S access without nerfing the team too much at once.. I love the 'new' trollslayers.

Overall, it still looks like a dwarven team, and is a lot more balanced than stuff seen in blood bowl magazine and other older "semi-official" sources.

[Andromidius]

In retrospect I'd be tempted to dump Block, Tackle AND Strength access on the Dwarf Linemen, and make them 50k. That would bring them in line with other teams (namely Orcs - why don't their Linemen get Strength access when Orcs are obvious choices for it due to their size and muscle?).

Also means there might be a little more to team development then Guard, Guard, Guard, Guard, Mighty Blow, Guard, Guard Guard...

But yeah, let them keep AG3. Means the Dwarf team could develop throwers using their Runners, and catchers/carriers using their Linemen. Nothing ground breaking, but it opens a few possibilities away from the Guardfest immovable wall build.

~Andromidius

[Thadrin]

While I maintain the Dwarf roster doesn't need changing to be balanced beyond the extra 10k cost of rerolls from LRB6 (which I'm fine with btw), if you want to completely rework the roster to knock the Blocker count down and add a lineman position then try this:

0-16 Lineman 5/3/2/9 Block, Thick Skull (G/PAS) 60k
0-4 Blocker 4/3/2/9 Block, Tackle, Thick Skull (GS/PA) 70k
0-4 Blitzer 5/3/3/9 Block, Thick Skull (GSA/P) 90k
0-2 Slayer 5/3/2/9 Juggernaut, Dauntless, Frenzy, Thick Skull (GS/PA) 90k
0-1 Deathroller (whatever it has now. I can't remember.)
Rerolls = 50k

Fairly close to the 2nd edition roster. There are very old threads about "Pro Dwarf" teams around TBB if you want to do a search.

This gives you the Lineman position you want. The increased team speed may encourage different tactics. This roster reduces the amount of tackle. Merging the Runner and Blitzer into a single position keeps the roster relatively streamlined. Their skill access makes them potentially very nasty, but I feel is necessary to allow them to get away with a max move of 5 without being completely hopeless, and encourages a varied set of skills on the players who will be getting the most SPPs.

My concern becomes that this team is far too close to the Orc roster for comfort. Also, how do you explain these changes to those who have (in my case three) existing teams without pissing them off quite mightily? I know there is precedent in the Undead roster for changing player quantities, and even then people were annoyed. Additionally, you don't want to be turning around to a potential new player to your league who has a team already and wants to play and saying "Sorry, you can't use your team because we changed it." That's one less player your league will have - and that's not just applicable to the Dwarf team.

If the amount of tackle is really the issue then the most sensible suggestion I've seen is one I read posted elsewhere by Darkson:

* We fixed dwarfs when we had our house-ruled lerague. Remove Tackle from the linemen (-10K), add tackle to the Blitzers (+10K). Worked for us.

[Jural]

Since this is all house rule stuff...

I like the existing dwarf roster, but make longbeards 0-4 blockers, and add a lineman. I like the dwarven runner- The speed and passing access is needed. A 5/3/2/9 Dwarf Linemen would be fine, as long as he only has either block or tackle, or Strength access.

I prefer the MA 4, AG 3 dwarf, but the MA 5, AG 2 guy works for me too.

[Melipone]

0-16 Lineman 5/3/2/9 Block, Thick Skull (G/PAS) 60k
0-4 Blocker 4/3/2/9 Block, Tackle, Thick Skull (GS/PA) 70k
0-4 Blitzer 5/3/3/9 Block, Thick Skull (GSA/P) 90k
0-2 Slayer 5/3/2/9 Juggernaut, Dauntless, Frenzy, Thick Skull (GS/PA) 90k
0-1 Deathroller (whatever it has now. I can't remember.)
Rerolls = 50k

...Their skill access makes them potentially very nasty, but I feel is necessary to allow them to get away with a max move of 5 without being completely hopeless, and encourages a varied set of skills on the players who will be getting the most SPPs.

You mean GSP/A access on those blitzers, right? You'd have a hard time convincing people that naturally sidestepping dwarves are a nerf.

I think that alternative roster is interesting but makes too many complex changes to say whether overall it will bump dwarves up or down, without more playtesting. Changing less parts of the team allows more predictability of the impact.

It's been interesting reading this thread about how different people feel different nerfs would affect the team. The point made about the impact of removing tackle on other teams in the league was a good one. If it were my league (I don't mind sticking my flag in the sand on this one ) I would choose:

Code: Select all

Dwarf team
0- 16 Lineman 60K 4329 GS Thick Skull, Tackle
0- 4  Blocker 70K 4329 GS Thick Skull, Block, Tackle
0- 2  Blitzer 80K 5339 GS Thick Skull, Block
0- 2  Runner  80K 6338 GP Thick Skull, Sure Hands
0- 2  Slayer  90K 5328 GS Thick Skull, Frenzy, Dauntless
ReRolls 60K, DeathRoller as normal.

So that's the linemen losing block for 10k back, and the slayers losing block, and re-rolls going up by 10k. This makes the starting roster more expensive than before (which I think addresses one concern that was mentioned, that the starting teams are still too cheap) and removes some block which gives more chances of the odd turn over. Maybe this is just bordering on too much of a nerf, in which case the troll slayers could be given Juggernaut but I think the above roster still looks like it would be pretty competitive and well into tier 1.

[Thadrin]

You mean GSP/A access on those blitzers, right? You'd have a hard time convincing people that naturally sidestepping dwarves are a nerf.

Nope. I meant what I wrote. It's compensation for the fact that the team's fastest player is MA5. The position also has to cover different functions - being both Blitzers and Runners. It also encourages teams to develop away from having quite so much Guard: for every sidesteping Blitzer that's one less guard. Dwarfs score slowly as is and thus these players will be getting relatively few skills.

----------------------------------------------------

Regarding that proposed roster:
I don't consider a Dwarf lineman without Block to be a Dwarf Lineman. I've always felt that the blockle combo Dwarf linemen had was to give them an equivalent 2+ action (on a D6) to compare with the 2+ Elves get on most actions or the "3+ with a reroll" on the Human roster.

There's no way on earth that the Linedwarf in that roster is worth 60k. Losing 2MA and 1AG isn't even matched by Thick Skull, Tackle and +1AV, let alone worth the 10k more than a human lineman that is proosed. They'll be gaining SPPs even slower than the current Dwarf Blocker as well, so the strength skill access is pretty much redundant.
In fact I'd argue that that Linedwarf is pretty much useless: can't block, can't do anything with the ball, can't outrun a Black orc. and loses races with Ogres. All that roster does is succeed in making the Lineman a player who will in time only see the field to make up numbers, rather than being an integral part of the team.

You'll have to explain to me how that Slayer is still worth 90k with no compensation for the loss of Block. You cannot possibly make that argument. And rerolls 60k? surely you are joking.

That team would make Dwarfs unplayable. Tier 2 AT BEST. What are they good at exactly? They've not got the strength or skills to bash and they haven't got the skills or attributes to run the ball. They'd get beaten up by any team which could out-position them (read: Everyone).

----------------------------------------------------------

If you make the Blocker a 0-4 then the Linedwarf should be 5/3/2/9 Block, TS (G/SAP) 60k. Any changes to the LRB6 roster beyond that would be overkill. I still far prefer Darkson's idea. If nothing else it's simple and means I don't need to redo my minis.

[Melipone]

In fact I'd argue that that Linedwarf is pretty much useless: can't block, can't do anything with the ball, can't outrun a Black orc. and loses races with Ogres. All that roster does is succeed in making the Lineman a player who will in time only see the field to make up numbers, rather than being an integral part of the team.

It was my intention to move in that direction by bringing in a lineman(/dwarf) player. I do agree the dwarf lineman is overpriced at 60k...but how else to balance it? Going lower, it gives a starting dwarf team even more cash - definitely not an out and out nerf. That's why I bumped up the reroll price - on the standard starting lineup that's -10k for one lineman, +30k on the re-rolls, which means starting with all positionals allows for only 2 rerolls. What I was trying to do was come up with a nerf that would only take away, not inadvertenly stealth buff. Starting from the blocker build and working down:

• 1. Increasing movement to 5 could end up buffing the team giving more mobility. Especially if the player retains block - wahey, 0-16 almost blitzers! Same with agility 3. Not good as a nerf.
  2. Taking away tackle from lineman reduces the amount of tackle on the team...which for me is a step in the wrong direction. I think the amount of tackle on the team is what gives it character (I imagine how you feel about having block on every player) and is not unbalancing.
  3. Reducing the cost of the lineman to 50k or below is too big a change to be called a definite nerf.
  4. Taking away block (possibly subbing in wrestle)

I don't see the massive problem with #4.

That team would make Dwarfs unplayable. Tier 2 AT BEST. What are they good at exactly? They've not got the strength or skills to bash and they haven't got the skills or attributes to run the ball. They'd get beaten up by any team which could out-position them (read: Everyone).

Block has been taken away from 3 players in the starting lineup. If the 2 trollslayers start with juggernaut (which I can see the arguments for...combined with re-roll increase and lack of linemen with block), that's a blitz each turn which is as risky as one with block/wrestle. At the moment, dwarves run the ball. It's going to affect the running game but not as much as you suggest, their gameplan is the same (as it should be, I wouldn't want any of these changes to reinvent in the team).

The other change that could work is switching Tackle for Wrestle on the new linemen, but I don't like it for the reduction in players with tackle. But maybe then you would feel they were worth their 60k and a bit more useful? If dwarves are to have all those "equivalent 2+ actions" compared to elves (not something I think is a top, top priority to preserve, but hey) then I think starting with only 2 re-rolls on a full squad is fair. So (coming from the viewpoint that xyz is running a league and would like to nerf the dwarf team) how does the following team look?

Code: Select all

Dwarf team
0- 16 Lineman 60K 4329 GS Thick Skull, Wrestle
0- 4  Blocker 70K 4329 GS Thick Skull, Block, Tackle
0- 2  Blitzer 80K 5339 GS Thick Skull, Block
0- 2  Runner  80K 6338 GP Thick Skull, Sure Hands
0- 2  Slayer  90K 5328 GS Thick Skull, Frenzy, Dauntless, Juggernaut
ReRolls 60K, DeathRoller as normal.

[mattgslater]

See, I think the Blocker should be a slow positional. The old name (Longbeard) referred to a special WFB Dwarf unit that was composed of aging veterans.

0-16 Linedwarf 5/3/2/9 Thick Skull GS/AP 50k
0-4 Blocker
0-2 Runner
0-2 Blitzer
0-2 Slayer
0-1 DR
60k TRR

Compare to Orcs:
* AG2 Linedwarfs without Block would be hard to improve. Thick Skull and S access are a consolation prize at best.
* Runners are comparable to Orc Throwers; +MA is a wash with Pass on a bashing team with multiple targets, and maybe a little better on Dwarfs. Thick Skull is nice, but not worth +10k.
* Blockers are comparable to BOBs, except that the shoe's on the other foot. At the same price I'd take a BOB, but at +10k?
* No contest on the Blitzers, even if you're comparing a Slayer and a Dwarf Blitzer to two Orc Blitzers... the Dwarfs look lame by contrast. Of course, so does every Blitzer up to 100k.
* No answer to Goblins. Well, an answer, but no comparable player.
* Troll vs. Deathroller... umm... 50k and no Secret Weapon says the Troll is a better bargain.

If that's too nerfy, improve the Runner by giving him Sure Feet at +10k, or knock 10k off the Blitzer's price or 10k off the TRR. All of those would be justifiable.

[Carnis]

for every sidesteping Blitzer that's one less guard. Dwarfs score slowly as is and thus these players will be getting relatively few skills.

I've always felt that the blockle combo Dwarf linemen had was to give them an equivalent 2+ action (on a D6) to compare with the 2+ Elves get on most actions or the "3+ with a reroll" on the Human roster.

You'll have to explain to me how that Slayer is still worth 90k with no compensation for the loss of Block. You cannot possibly make that argument. And rerolls 60k? surely you are joking.

That team would make Dwarfs unplayable. Tier 2 AT BEST. What are they good at exactly? They've not got the strength or skills to bash and they haven't got the skills or attributes to run the ball.

It's not my original post, but let's dissect some of yours.

1) The blitzers in your proposed list would be the fastest players in the team, hence they would be scoring majority of the TD's, and hence gaining most of the SPPs. So guard/sidestep (dodge) would not be far behind.

2) Chance of failing a dodge with ag4 & dodge is 1/36, chance to fail a 2d block is 1/1296. So dodge-block do not really compare.

3) Slayer is one of the 2 original 3rd ed players who were against the player-creation rules. The other being wardancer. Wardancer breaks the design rule of having block & dodge on start. Trollslayer breaks the rule of having too many starting skills, so losing block is totally ok. Compare it to norse blitzer..

4) The team would still be lower tier1. Tier1 is very very wide, in that best tier1 teams are way better than the worst tier 2 teams. Finally, AV9 and thick skull with GS access makes dwarven (and elven with GA) linemen the best overall linemen by far.

[Andromidius]

How about making the Linemen MA5 and AV8? Means they are a bit faster then Longbeards, but not as well protected. Means you can justify them costing 50k (the same as Norse Linemen).

Dwarf Lineman 50k 5/3/2/8 Thick Skull, Block G/SAP

Still makes the team pretty bashy and tough, just a little more fluid and less like a brick wall (though only slightly). Compared to other teams' equivilent Linemen they match up reasonably well:

Human - +1MA, +1AG, -Block
Amazon - +1MA, +1AG, -1AV, +Dodge
Norse +1MA, +1AG, -1AV
Orc - +1AG, +1AV
Skaven - +2MA, +1AG, -1AV

(And obviously Thick Skull, but that's a minor thing.)

And they all cost the same, so I think that's pretty darn balanced.

~Andromidius

[Thadrin]

• 1. Increasing movement to 5 could end up buffing the team giving more mobility. Especially if the player retains block - wahey, 0-16 almost blitzers! Same with agility 3. Not good as a nerf.

I've said my piece on this subject, and really don't have the energy to argue about something that I feel is completely superfluous anyway, but I will just leave by pointing out that this isn't true: the difference of AG 2 and ag 3 is a big one, and the linedwarfs on the roster I posted lack S access.