Wild Animal / Rulez Boyz Woes - Please Help!

[Milo]

John,

We may revise the wording to the cleaner version you suggested, but Al the Rat is correct in his understanding: you must declare your action before you do anything. If you declare a move action, you cannot, later in your turn after standing up, also declare a block or blitz action. So, if your Rat Ogre is prone at the start of his action, he is not required to block/blitz or even really do anything.

Milo

[Tim]

I'll always take the troll over the minotaur for the chaos dwarf team.

I have played 60+ games with skaven with the 3rd ed. WA and the damn skill has cost me several games including two championschip finals. I'm just too good at rolling snake eyes.

The most negative thing is having to move first. Yes, a WA going wild will often result in something useful, but you can NEVER use him tactically, e.g. prepare some assists and then use the strength of the player to break a cage, something a troll or ogre does easily (on 2+ at least). That makes a WA big guy a boring casualty maschine with no real contribution to the team tactics other than removing a player from the pitch once in a while. It's the only negatrait that has a permanent non-diced effect.

The best player i ever had in the 3rd ed was a RO that lost WA and gained +1 AG and Block. But arm8 makes him a short-liver as well.

[Milo]

The most negative thing is having to move first. Yes, a WA going wild will often result in something useful, but you can NEVER use him tactically, e.g. prepare some assists and then use the strength of the player to break a cage, something a troll or ogre does easily (on 2+ at least).

When will Bonehead EVER result in something useful? How about Really Stupid? Take Root?

It's supposed to be a Negative Skill. Bonehead can cost you the game if you need your Ogre to blitz someone and he fails it. Take Root can, indirectly, if your teams gets brutalized in the first half because you have no Tree to cover the line.

Anyways, I'm playing Skaven myself in an upcoming league, and I intend to get a Rat Ogre ASAP and use him to death. I don't *think* the current version is a problem, but I hope to prove that to myself via some playtesting. I'll keep everyone's comments in mind and compare them with my own experience.

For those of you already with Rat Ogres, let me suggest a skill you might find useful: Piling On. The best part of this, for the Rat Ogre, is not that you get +5 on the Armor Roll, but that your player is prone on the field at the end of his turn and isn't required to block or blitz at the start of the next turn. You might also want to get Spikes as a mutation, since you'll need the 9AV if you're going to spend most of the time face up on the pitch.

Milo

[Heiper]

Hmmm, are you sure you don't have to Blitz when you are prone and have a player next to you? We've played that you do have to blitz, makes the WA trait a real pain, as it should be. I can't see in the rules that you don't have to Blitz a player thats standing next to you if you are prone. I might be wrong again tho

[Tim]

@Milo:

Bonehead gives you a ST5 really useful player with tactical options on a 2+ (65/72 with pro, thats over 90%), if that's not useful i don't know.
Really Stupid is almost the same, there's a player next to the BG in most of the times if not, this is why trolls are so cheap .
Take Root is pretty harsh, but on the other hand it won't generate turnovers for your team and does not effectively bring you down to 10 players on the pitch for a turn so i think it's balanced with the other negatraits. Missing the tree for a half is no big deal for the woodies, however it can completly ruin a game for the 'flings.

But i'd be interested to get your opinion on WA after you played some games with the skaven. Make sure that you get into team development alot and play experienced teams. I'd suggest to try a match with very experienced teams around 200-250 TR, this is where the lack of tactical options hurts the most.

btw: i often hear an argument like "even with WA, the Rat Orge is a hell of a player". That's true, but a RO is also the most expensive Big Guy (with kroxigor) and can only play for a team (Skaven) that really has lost a lot of advantages during the last years of rule changes (Only 8 position players, lots of new STR teams, cut-down of fouling).

Cheers,
Tim.

[GalakStarscraper]

Hmmm, are you sure you don't have to Blitz when you are prone and have a player next to you? We've played that you do have to blitz, makes the WA trait a real pain, as it should be. I can't see in the rules that you don't have to Blitz a player thats standing next to you if you are prone. I might be wrong again tho

You are incorrect.

A Wild Animal only goes beserk if he is ALREADY standing and has an adjacent opponent at the start of his turn. If he is prone, he can do whatever he wants. If he has break tackle he can stand up, dodge away, and go do whatever he wants somewhere else even if after standing up he then has an adjacent opponent.

Galak

[Heiper]

I guess we play it wrong then, but we'll houserule it that way. The other way I don't think its negative enough tbh. But could you point out where its said in the rules that it does not cound while prone? The rules are so spread out that I have problems finding things each time I look for something

[Skummy]

Bonehead and Really Stupid don't make you take extra rolls when you have another player running down the sideline for a touchdown. I don't think there is any question that WA is the most negative trait in the game. The real problem is that it takes away a coach's ability to tactically move his team around, and can indirectly hurt an already fragile team. I would also like to hear your opinions on him after you have used him in a league for some time.

[McSnaga]

"If standing a WA must block or blitz", is the phrase people seem to find contentious, in that it is being interpreted that if a WA stands up he must blitz. However this is forgetting the fact that a blitz must be declared before you start to take an action. A prone WA is not in a position where he must declare a blitz, he is also not in a position where he can block. Therefore, there is no reason within the rules to force a prone WA to use the team's blitz action.

Heiper - see Al's comments - explains it pretty well - it is therefore covered by the rules.

[GalakStarscraper]

I guess we play it wrong then, but we'll houserule it that way. The other way I don't think its negative enough tbh. But could you point out where its said in the rules that it does not cound while prone? The rules are so spread out that I have problems finding things each time I look for something

Its right in the text of WA.

The penalty of WA only kicks in if when the WA starts his turn upright. The text that say if a WA is standing next to an adjacent opponent means starts upright it does not mean in the process of standing up. This has been clarified numerous times. If you are reading this as "in the process of standing" then you are reading more into the text than was intended.

Galak

[Milo]

Bonehead gives you a ST5 really useful player with tactical options on a 2+ (65/72 with pro, thats over 90%), if that's not useful i don't know.
Really Stupid is almost the same, there's a player next to the BG in most of the times if not, this is why trolls are so cheap .
Take Root is pretty harsh, but on the other hand it won't generate turnovers for your team and does not effectively bring you down to 10 players on the pitch for a turn so i think it's balanced with the other negatraits. Missing the tree for a half is no big deal for the woodies, however it can completly ruin a game for the 'flings.

Tim, my comment about usefulness was related directly to a quote in my earlier post wherein someone had stated that sometimes Wild Animal worked to your advantage. My point was that the other negative skills NEVER work to your advantage, only to your disadvantage. They're supposed to be negative, after all.

But i'd be interested to get your opinion on WA after you played some games with the skaven. Make sure that you get into team development alot and play experienced teams. I'd suggest to try a match with very experienced teams around 200-250 TR, this is where the lack of tactical options hurts the most.

Don't worry, I'll keep people up to date. It will probably be three or four games before I can afford him, but I'm a pretty skilled Skaven coach, so it shouldn't be too long.

btw: i often hear an argument like "even with WA, the Rat Orge is a hell of a player". That's true, but a RO is also the most expensive Big Guy (with kroxigor) and can only play for a team (Skaven) that really has lost a lot of advantages during the last years of rule changes (Only 8 position players, lots of new STR teams, cut-down of fouling).

Just to lay it all out -- Rat Ogres are the fastest, most agile Big Guys in the game. In addition, they are just as strong and armored as a Minotaur, start with a very useful mutation, and have the ability to gain more. They deserve not only a high price tag but also some harsh balancing factors.

I'll decide for myself in the next few months if the current balancing factor is too harsh, just right, or not harsh enough.

Milo

[Trambi]

In the LRB : "Last but not least Wild animals can never receive assists when the block or foul; they are simply too out of control for the players to help them out."
If I have well understand :
A wild animal can't receive assist when he block or is blocked.
His opponent can receive assit when he block or is blocked by a WA.
A wild animal can assist a block or a foul.
Is it good ?

[Milo]

Trambi --

You're right. Also, remember that Wild Animals can't receive assists when fouling another player.

Milo