Nerfing orcs. How?

UncleBob · Post by **UncleBob** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:02 pm

What makes Orcs unique is that they are the only team that can field an entire line-up with AV 9 and still win.
Every other team has a weak spot (AV 8 or less) they've got to use, Beastman, Pestigor, Dwarf Runner, Skeletons and so on.
I once played against such an Orc team and it was total frustration. There was absolutly no option to throw a good block and if it happened the armour saved them.
In my opinion the problem with Orcs is that they don't have to use their Throwers and Goblins. That are rookie picks.

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:44 pm

Dwarf Runners and Slayers are AV 8, but so are Orc Throwers, and goblins are AV 7! I think the value of the team goes beyond the AV on their linemen (who typically hold 1-3 slots out of 12-13 on a developed roster anyway.)

stashman · Post by **stashman** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:04 pm

0-16 Orc Lineman 6329 G/SAP 50K

Digger Goreman · Post by **Digger Goreman** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:12 pm

Dwarf runner may be Av8... but is NOT a weak spot... indeed, it's a super cheesy part of a supra-cheesy team....

Reduce positionals on all teams to 0-2, and make them play with linemen... makes my Necros quite the challenge to coach....

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 7:03 pm

Yeah, not counting Big Guys, I kind of agree that all teams should have 6 or 8 positionals, and counting Big Guys, I think it should be still 9 or less. I think Gobs don't have to count as positionals, as they're linos on another team: knocking off a pair of Blitzers would probably do it.

atropabelladonna · Post by **atropabelladonna** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:45 pm

While I am late to this discussion, what we did is make it a pure orc team. No goblins or troll.

edit

After reading the post more, I think I should state my opinion as to why our league did this. As someone else said, Orcs really have no weaknesses at low or high TV and we felt in a "league Enviroment" they are a bit too good. The removal of goblins didn't really seem to be a big deal, but combine that with the loss of the troll and now they are brought down a peg. And they even are forced to play a lineman every drive...

Digger Goreman · Post by **Digger Goreman** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:23 pm

That'd work fine for me.... Trolls and Gobbos are just super icing on the cake.... 4 Black Orcs and 4 Blitzers is too, too much also.... And I play Orcs!

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:59 pm

What about increasing the price of BOBs to 90k, then giving them Thick Skull? That would take 40k off of most teams, meaning it would be almost impossible to start with the maximum ST allotment even with a Troll on the roster, unless you sacrifice Blitzer #4 or downgrade a Thrower to a Goblin.

If you're going to take Big Guys off of Orcs, maybe you should make them a bit harder-hitting; it wouldn't do to have Orcs out-strengthed by anything other than Khemri. You could make the Thrower AV9 at the same price, or maybe you could add a bit to the price of Blitzers or Black Orcs but give them some worthwhile bash skill, like say 100k Blitzers with PO? That might be a bit much... Tackle doesn't work, MB would be excessive... still needs salt.

But seriously, are Orcs really too powerful at any point? They may be the most sustainable team, but how important is that really? It sounds important, but if you think about it awhile "always in the pack" is only a problem if you have an exclusive postseason tournament after a fixed season, something that happens a lot in real-world sports but I can't imagine is very common in BB these days (BB being a volunteer activity with very low per-match costs, most leagues I've seen are either open-scheduled or have a relatively inclusive playoff format). And even then, Orcs don't seem overwhelming: in that context, they'd be on a par with Woodies and Dwarfs. I guess if you're going to nerf Woodies and Dwarfs, you should tone Orcs down a touch....

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:47 am

Hi Mattgslater,
I think I've said this in several of the other nerf threads as well - but you seem to have a basic problen with the nerf concept.

A nerf is supposed to take something away and weaken the team. Not take something away and then give something back that almost counters the nerf or maybe even makes it a tad better..

No offense meant

Cheers
Martin

Carnis · Post by **Carnis** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:37 am

0-2 BOBs

or

0-2 Blitzers

or if that's not enough.

0-2 BOBs AND 0-2 Blitzers (like the norse team!).

Orcs would then have to field linemen (oh the horror! - they only have the best linemen in the game).

Upping blitzers to 90k (wight, skaven/human blitzer..) would help, but only very short term.

Btw, AV9 also makes orcs (barring BOBs) better dodgers than human or skaven players.. That's something that REALLY cracks me up.

Carnis · Post by **Carnis** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 10:06 am

Jural wrote: 1) Usually, a team should be nerfed or boosted based upon data.

2) The data for orc teams is unreliable, but no reliable data exists.

There's always NAF rankings, in there the top teams do fair a wee bit better than the rest. For orcs the NAF rank of the best player is 231, indicating they do ok early.

Undead which are strong early top player is 251. Pro elves who do fairly badly early (for elves) are at 196. Chaos is at 178, slightly above halflings. Heh.

Orcs only get better as they develop too.

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 11:04 am

Actually, a comment I wanted to make to Jurals above post:

In sociology there are 2 kinds of data qauntitative (sp?) and qualitative.
We've got lots of quantitative data.
But qualitative data also has some merit - with the risk of being anecdotal.

But thinking about it, I've seen tons of posters/threads here over the years claiming that orcs are o´ver the top.
Doubt I've seen one that claimed they were too weak.
Might be a hint that it's more than anectdotal...

Ah well

Martin

Patchwork · Post by **Patchwork** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 5:35 pm

Drop the Blitzers or Black Orcs to 0-2. I'm not really sure which I prefer. The blitzers would be the bigger nerf as they are the key position on the roster but droping them removes a bit of speed from the orc team and makes them even more grindy, for that reason alone I think the Black Orcs might be a better nerf target so the Orcs keep the bit of maneuverability and speed (actualy gaining some with the loss of two black orcs) that they do have.

Aliboon · Post by **Aliboon** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 5:54 pm

0-2 BOBs by preference.

Maybe 0-2 BOBs and Blitzers if that weren't enough, or even 0-2 BOBs and 90k Blitzers.

Teydyn · Post by **Teydyn** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 10:17 pm

0-2 BOBs or 0-2 Blitzer.

Maybe even a daring 0-3 BOBs & 0-3 Blitzer