Need ideas for nerfing dwarfs - round 3: Poll

[Jural]

#3.... but really those arent linemen. They are either too pricey/slow or have block

7 - 5339 TS GS/AP 60k

(basicly #6 but with AG3 instead of break tackle, could maybe be 10k more expensive but it just looks like an overpriced orc lineman then)

I;d go with that as well, or Matt's suggestion below. Especially with a 0-4 or 0-2 blocker position.

[Carnis]

I agree with SillySod, that none of the #1-6 suggestions are linemen.

Pricing/statting the new lineman would be hard, but I'd go for either:

5329 TS GS/AP
4339 TS GS/AP

Or SillySod's

5339 but with G/SAP and not GS/AP.

[plasmoid]

I added a few more options, and tallied the "votes" so far.

A few comments:
Jural asked why a dwarf lineman would have wrestle.
- well, for whatever reason they had tackle. "Good at bringing people down, or whatever".

SillySod commented that most of them aren't real linemen (expensive/block).
- AFAIK a lot of dwarf proponents find that a dwarf without block is not a real dwarf. Like an elf with AG3.
But I've added 2 more blockless options.

As for myself, I like 2, 3, 8 and 9. But 2 and 3 are hardly nerfs - especially with blockers in the mix.

[mattgslater]

FTR, I voted #3 before you added 7-9. 3 would now be my second choice after 8. 2 is ok... I like 7 better than 9.

If you're going to do a lineman along with the Blocker, I think you should do a 0-2 Blocker if the Lineman has Block or AG3, and 0-4 if you go for option 8. 10-positional Dwarfs would be a nice, modest nerf: there would be one guy playing catch-up, journeymen would be journeyman-like, and reserves would be born benchwarmers.

8 is pure nerf, by the way. You can start with all 10 positionals, 1 lino, 3 TRR... and 20k that you would have used to take an extra blocker. Your team gets +1 total MA, but now has three non-Block players. That's three, as in one more than most lineups can protect. Downgrading a player to pad the 20k isn't worthwhile: you have to pay AG and a good skill to get enough savings to get a reserve, apo or 4th TRR, so there'd only be one build at 1M.

What about 5/3/2/8 Block, TS GS 60k? That would be nerfier in the long run, but a little better on a brand-new team.

[SillySod]

#8 works fine. I'd make the longbeards 0-4 if the linemen has general access only or 0-2 if the linemen have strength as well.

[Carnis]

#8 works fine. I'd make the longbeards 0-4 if the linemen has general access only or 0-2 if the linemen have strength as well.

My vote for this as well.

[plasmoid]

Hi Carnis and mattgslater,
I've counted your "votes". BTW, I don't consider this actual voting, but a guideline as to which options should make the final poll to end this subject.

SillySod, I agree, I'll be going with 0-2 blockers and GS access on the linemen.
Cheers
Martin

[Jural]

With 0-2 or 0-4 blockers, I'm prefer of 7, and 8 is OK as well.

I'd be completely sold on 4 3 3 9 TS GS/AP, but that isn't in the poll.

[Thadrin]

The problem you run into by adding a 0-4 "Blocker" position remains the fact that you're invalidating people's existing teams. (0-4 is fine, there are other teams that don't HAVE to field a lineman already)
Making my existing teams invalid or making me buy new models just to play is a sure fire way of making me not want to play in that league.

Also, the idea that having block somehow makes something "Not a lineman" is patently ridiculous: Norse Linemen have block. Amazon Linewomen have Dodge. Zombie Linemen have Regenerate.
having a skill doesn't mean a player isn't a lineman. Being at a significant disadvantage to the rest of the team in some way does.

[plasmoid]

Hi Thadrin,
well - I'm guessing any league where you have a say wouldn't exactly be the audience for these changes.
But:
These changes wouldn't require anyone to buy new minis.
But they would ofcourse make an existing roster invalid - that's kind of the point. But with somewhat similar statlines and identical skill-access between lineman and blocker porting a team wouldn't be all that tricky.

Cheers
Martin

[SillySod]

Give the long beards white beards and the linemen brown beards? Usually the beards take up a significant enough portion of the model that you'd be able to spot the difference.

The main reason to avoid block is that this is meant to be a nerf... taking away block puts them a little further back in the skill curve.

[Thadrin]

I think the removal of block also fundamentally changes the character of the team: they're meant to be exceedingly tough and skilled at the physical side, while not being much cop at anything else. Part of the reason I love the current Dwarf team is that it fits the Dwarf character perfectly.

Plasmoid - that "me" wasn't a specific "me". That "me" was the guy who turns up to your league with his painted Dwarf team, wanting to play the game. You really going to say "oh you want to play Dwarfs? here's the roster we use. You can't use those Blockers, because we've house ruled them away. You'll need some Linemen too".

Whatever you do to Nerf the Dwarf team in your league should have as it's number 1 priority "don't screw the existing players". Change skills and access, but you mess with new positions then you may as well start a new team...and we've had that discussion before.

You want a Nerfed Blocker/Linedwarf?
4/3/2/9 Block, TS G/SAP 60k.
He's gone dwon in cost, but has lost Tackle and S access.

[plasmoid]

Hi Thadrin,

Part of the reason I love the current Dwarf team is that it fits the Dwarf character perfectly.

Well, I'll put the 3-4 favourite options in a poll. We'll see if the majority feels as passionately about block.

That "me" was the guy who turns up to your league with his painted Dwarf team, wanting to play the game. You really going to say "oh you want to play Dwarfs? here's the roster we use.

Yes. Absolutely.
If my league had already agreed on a nerf, I'd be a poor commish if I let a newcomer change it back.
I'd expect him to:
1) Try another team. Might do him some good
2) Suck it up and Do like the romans.
3) Play somewhere else
...but I wouldn't expect him to buy new minis. Just maybe colour the baserings.

Whatever you do to Nerf the Dwarf team in your league should have as it's number 1 priority "don't screw the existing players".

I think a nerf has to screw anyone wanting them not to change.
But naturally I'd secure the support of my league before doing something like this.
In a league not playing perpetual, I'd not do this until a new season, so anyone put off by this could pick another team than dwarfs. I hear wood elfs are all the rage

4/3/2/9 Block, TS G/SAP 60k

Now, that definately is an option.
I just figure that for each "dwarfs have to have block" coach, there'll be a "dwarfs have to have S" coach.

Cheers
Martin

[plasmoid]

Right. The poll is up!
viewtopic.php?t=27901

[stashman]

Well I'm late but I think this is a team someone else made before me.

0-2 80K runners 6338 GP thick skull, sure hands
0-2 90K slayers 5328 GS thick skull, multiple block, frenzy, dauntless
0-4 90K blitzers 5339 GS thick skull, block, tackle
0-16 60K blockers 4329 GS thick skull, block
0-1 Deathroller as normal

Slayers become more unreliable and more "fun" with multiple block.

Make Blitzers 0-4 and add Tackle. Makes team alot more agile (maybe people starts to pass with dwarfs) and with Tackle the team can get does fast and agile and dodgy players.

Blockers will not have Tackle and that will probably make a diffrence.