Need ideas for buffing ogres - round 4, Proposal

[Carnis]

Since you have experience with 'em: Would 0-2 gobbos be crazy powerful?

no.

[Jural]

0-2 goblins is no problem... Strange fluff, but OK.

[Gronlokk]

Actually I don't mind losing most of the time with my ogre team. What really bothers me, is that my opponents not only score more touchdowns but also cause more casualties. The snots are basically a SPP fountain for the other team. The ogres are outnumbered and get their heads smashed in by their opponents.
Meh, my point is: Ogres are currently not a bashing team, but considering the fluff they should be.
By the way, I voted for MA6 on snots. Makes the team score more touchdowns, but does not address the lack of being a threat for the well-being of the other team.

[Carnis]

Actually I don't mind losing most of the time with my ogre team. What really bothers me, is that my opponents not only score more touchdowns but also cause more casualties. The snots are basically a SPP fountain for the other team.

This is also why I quit playing ogres. IF I won, it was basicly only possible by clearing the pitch to 2-3 players. Meaning that if I win the game is basicly a reset for the opposing team, with 3-4 serious injuries/deaths, and if I lost then the team goes home with bucketloads of free casualties from snotlings, giving them an unfair advantage against other teams.

The scoring side, having either AG2 ogres, which get raped with strip ball OR st1/ma5 ballcarriers was frustrating enough to make any standard scoring plan a nightmare. I didn't mind that, but it did make the strategy part a bit redundant to say the least.

Goblins would help that, as well as runner ogres with sure hands instead of throw teammate.

[plasmoid]

Psh. Yeah, my snotlings do take a beating.
But I can't agree that Ogres are not "a threat to the other team".
I can sure dish it out.
And I've yet to have my ogres' "heads smashed in" from being outnumbered.

So, to my eye, they're plenty bash.
You just have to go in with your roster full of snotlings
(I've heard coaches recommend that you don't buy snotlings "because they die anyway". That's just utter nonsense!!)

Cheers
Martin

[Carnis]

Hi SillySod,
I was thinking about best potential 11 on a starting roster - as a guideline for team design.
A lot of teams land around 900K. Only Delfs and Welfs break the million. Going to almost 1180K seems crazy.

Slann break it too (1020k), coming only 20k behind welfs and having absolutely no starting block/dodge which the other >1mil lists have in abundance (welf 4 dodge, 2 blodge, 1S6 / delf 2 dodge 4 block).

The 1180k is crazy, and it shows how overpriced the current ogres really are. With no access to G skills they become even more overpriced if they get the only sensible upgrade - block (a double - additional 10 extra penalty cost, that was not there in LRB4).

If the list was 120k each & 8 ogres then we'd be landing at 1020k for the "best 11".

That's the same as the slann team now, and also starts with 0 block / dodge. Will be further penalized for taking block or tackle etc.

They would also have overpriced rerolls at 70k, not making for a TR-efficient team.

120k per ogre is not so farfetched, that's the price that was used in LRB4. The list was really hated (by opponents), but not nearly as successful as the reliable bashy sides (khemri, orcs, etc).

The pricecut with the 2 goblins might do something, where you could sometimes field 8 ogres by fielding brickfarth and bertha against a strong opponent.

But really, think about this scenario. Want to play in a 1.1m tourney, want to field ogres (not just the stars), want to field minimum # of snotlings (cause they are that bad). Want a minimum of 2 RRs (maybe that's just over the top). Individual cases. I'm not adding the goblin SW-stars here, cause they are really not that great as one of the "best 11", being one use only.

The rules proposed by the poll in bold. I really think the suggestions below the poll rules would be the most appropriate, because ogres were stealthnerfed further with the addition of a meaningful non-random inducement system and the 10k price punishment for doubles (which all ogre positions, including snotlings, rely heavily upon).

Ogres in a 1100k tournament:
Current rules:
6 ogre 6 snotling 2 rerolls = 1100k "best lineup".

Add 0-8 ogres:
6 ogre 6 snotling 2 reroll OR 7 ogre 6 snotling 0 Reroll = 1100k "best lineups"

Add 0-2 goblins:
6 ogre 1 goblin 4 snotling 2 rerolls = 1100k "best lineup"

Add 120k ogres:
Bertha, 5 ogre 5 snotling 2 reroll OR 6 ogre, 5 snotling, 4 reroll = 1100k "best lineups"

Add 120k ogres & 0-2 goblins:
Brick/Grotty, 4 ogres, 2 goblins, 3 snotlings, apoth, 2x RR = 1100k This is just one lineup, many more would exist due to less restricted list (the goblins) and more money (the 120k pricecut).

Of course this could be idle chatter, but as plasmoid intends to ignore the 8 ogre poll result I guess we could re-discuss the entire ogre thread, really.

[plasmoid]

Hi Carnis,
I won't be ignoring the 0-8 ogre solution.
But for pretty much all of the buffed teams I'll do a write-up with the #1 option included in the team list, and the runner-up option listed as a potential additional buff for those so inclined.

I could see 130K ogres. In fact, personally I think it would be a good idea.
But that's not how these polls developed (unfortunately)

As for the "best teams" you've listed - our playing style differ.
I'd go in with a 16 man team in a tournament.
And from experience, 6 ogres isn't always an advantage, so I might go with 5, if that could net me a star.
I'd definately rather go 5 ogres 4 rerolls, than 6 ogres 2 rerolls.

Oh, maybe I misunderstood, but:

That's the same as the slann team now, and also starts with 0 block / dodge. Will be further penalized for taking block or tackle etc.

Ogre teams start with a lot of dodge.

Cheers
Martin

[Carnis]

As for the "best teams" you've listed - our playing style differ.
I'd go in with a 16 man team in a tournament.
And from experience, 6 ogres isn't always an advantage, so I might go with 5, if that could net me a star.
I'd definately rather go 5 ogres 4 rerolls, than 6 ogres 2 rerolls.

My "best teams" were not the best unconditional teams (I would not play any of them in a tourney, save maybe the last one with the huge buffs). I was iterating the point that with the current pricetag on the ogres, they are indeed not worth playing with over a snotling + stars roster. I don't think a tier 2 team's (under your houseruled system) best rostered players are supposed to be that bad.

The conditions below and with the snotlings I meant minimum possible on the field (i.e. maximize ogres+gobs+stars over snots):

Want to field ogres (not just the stars), want to field minimum # of snotlings (cause they are that bad). Want a minimum of 2 RRs (maybe that's just over the top).

Also, I think 120k ogres would have met more success than a "10k pricedump on something". A lot of the outcome of the polls are determined by the options and how you write them out into the poll.

[plasmoid]

Hi Carnis,
you're welcome to start a new thread on ogre house rules. I don't mind at all.
But the poll here was the result of brainstorming and gathering enough support to then make it onto the poll.
I'm don't remember if 130K ogres even got discussed, but without checking I'm fairly sure that it didn't get a lot of support - hence it didn't make the poll.

And - having just coached ogres for 13 games with a fair bit of succes, I don't really agree with a lot of your statements. But I may be misunderstanding you.
I don't think that the best way to play an ogre team is to go all snots and stars.
Nor do I think that maxing out ogres and going in with just 11 players is a strong roster.
I think 4-5 ogres and lots of snotlings gives you the best combination of big bashers and annoying roadblocks.

Cheers
Martin

[Carnis]

Hi Carnis,
you're welcome to start a new thread on ogre house rules. I don't mind at all.
But the poll here was the result of brainstorming and gathering enough support to then make it onto the poll.
I'm don't remember if 130K ogres even got discussed, but without checking I'm fairly sure that it didn't get a lot of support - hence it didn't make the poll.

And - having just coached ogres for 13 games with a fair bit of succes, I don't really agree with a lot of your statements. But I may be misunderstanding you.
I don't think that the best way to play an ogre team is to go all snots and stars.
Nor do I think that maxing out ogres and going in with just 11 players is a strong roster.
I think 4-5 ogres and lots of snotlings gives you the best combination of big bashers and annoying roadblocks.

Cheers
Martin

Mattgslater suggested 130k ogres, and thought 0-8 ogres were overpowering. I usually disagree with everything matt says, but this time he was on the right track I think (although, I'd prefer returning to 120k ogres).

I don't think any roster with a bunch of ogres will be overpowering to say the least. Especially not under the current rules, where TV-efficiency is a real factor.

I guess it's my personal weird pipedream, but I'd like teams like this coming back to BB fields (note the less than 1/3 winratios)!

http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&team_id=422479
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&team_id=418659

Roster such as this would do it for me:

0-8 (or even up to 0-12) Ogres 120k
0-2 (or none) Goblins 40k
0-16 Snotlings 20k

I assume your list will be:

0-8 Ogres
0-16 MA6 snotlings

The big difference in opinion between the two of us is, if you want the ogre team to be about ogres - or about snotlings.. The current price on ogres means might as well be 0-4 ogre blockers, and 0-16 snotlings and the team could be named snotlings..

Another big difference between my and your ogre experience is in our league mb/piling blitzers are really popular. Getting 1 CAS/turn with a MB/PO blitzer on a snotling is not a big deal at all for the blitzing player, but a big deal indeed for the ogre player.

[Cam Jessup]

Actually I don't mind losing most of the time with my ogre team. What really bothers me, is that my opponents not only score more touchdowns but also cause more casualties. The snots are basically a SPP fountain for the other team.

This is also why I quit playing ogres. IF I won, it was basicly only possible by clearing the pitch to 2-3 players. Meaning that if I win the game is basicly a reset for the opposing team, with 3-4 serious injuries/deaths, and if I lost then the team goes home with bucketloads of free casualties from snotlings, giving them an unfair advantage against other teams.

The scoring side, having either AG2 ogres, which get raped with strip ball OR st1/ma5 ballcarriers was frustrating enough to make any standard scoring plan a nightmare. I didn't mind that, but it did make the strategy part a bit redundant to say the least.

Goblins would help that, as well as runner ogres with sure hands instead of throw teammate.

Hi all, first post finally! Have lurked for a while.
Just quickly on this issue we have found the same thing in our league and we have added a special rule to snotlings called nobody cares. The gist is that the opposition only get SPP's for a Snotling if it is killed they get nothing for causing Badly Hurt or Injury type results. This has tended to stop our players targetting the snotlings quite as much since the benefit of hitting them is reduced (somewhat).
I know this isn't a buff so much for Ogre players but it does mean the opposition is not skilling up as quickly when playing them.

[boxjuggler]

A rule I've been thinking of using is that if an Ogre rolls a 7 for their skill roll, they can choose a double. Doubles the chance of them being able to get a useful skill without changing things to much.

[SillySod]

The nobody cares rule is pretty neat.

A rule I've been thinking of using is that if an Ogre rolls a 7 for their skill roll, they can choose a double. Doubles the chance of them being able to get a useful skill without changing things to much.

Make that access to "tackle" instead (strip ball for snotlings). Ogres often suffer horribly against blodge because they cant afford to chuck away doubles on something so situational as tackle.

[Oxynot]

Ok, this thread has been dormant for quite a while, but I want to give in my feedback since I always liked teh ogre team, but hadn't really played it, until now.

I feel I can live with 0-6 ogres and snotlings.

The biggest flaw I've found so far is the TV. Ogres perform badly against other teams with similar team value, but this gets progressively worse and worse.

So when facing a team with similar team value you get creamed, because the other team is just plainly better. And if the other team is of somewhat more comparable performance, they get a load of inducements.

I'd go and drop an ogre's price to 120k. That would shave of about 100k the team value. Might change the ogres from horrible to bad. Or maybe just 10k of both ogres and rerolls.

MA6 snotlings sound good, but would not help with the TV problem.

This is how I feel after about dozen or so odd games with LRB5 ogres. A shame a price dump isn't on the table for LRB6 changes.

[plasmoid]

Agreed.
Their TV is inflated - and it hurts.

Also, AV6 snots might work better than MA6 snots.

In my experience, once opponents get just slightly developed, they just target your snots until you are outnumbered. And there is very little you can do about it.