turnover 4 minute rule

daloonieshaman · Post by **daloonieshaman** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 4:21 am

When do you stop a player in action when the 4 minutes runs out?

1)When he has completed his action (move/blitz/pass/foul)
2)at that exact time in the square he is in

If blitzing/blocking he gets to complete his rolls right? (blocking dice, Armour injury)

some other method?

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 5:42 am

Quoting from memory I believe the turnover rules says that the turnover occurs immediately.
I take that to mean that he stops dead in his square (and can't do anything other than roll dice (sequence) that had already been initiated).

In my league though we house rule that he gets to end his action before the TO occurs.

Cheers
Martin

Andrew from Cheadle · Post by **Andrew from Cheadle** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:43 am

Lots of people don't play the 4 minute rule....I know I have never been told 'your 4 minutes is up, it's my turn.' nor have I ever instigated a turnover against my opponent for taking longer than 4 minutes.

Doesn't really answer your question but I'm sure it depends on the situation / individuals concerned.

Andrew

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:55 am

we use it in some of our games for the really slow players

I don't do it in my games personally though, even against the slow players

when we do use it we let them finish the action of the active player

but yes on the whole I think more leagues don't use it than do

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:01 am

Also, when we do use it, we treat it as an IP - so you can choose to pay up and gain 4 new minutes.

Digger Goreman · Post by **Digger Goreman** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:22 pm

I ask before game if we're "on the timer" and set one up, if so....

By the book you stop where you are in movement.... Wouldn't be the first time it cost me a TD (my fault for slow-tailing). Mini's in the square; action declared and dice shaking in hand; roll it! <Might be a "house rule", but that's what I call fair....

daloonieshaman · Post by **daloonieshaman** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 5:41 pm

We have 60 something people
We use the timer (otherwise most games would go on forever)
We also use the IP
Both with exceptions for newbies the first 3 or 5 games but explain to them what is going on

"you forgot to move your marker and you will get called for an IP later so go ahead and move your marker"
"Your 4 minutes are up and normally your turn will end, for now keep going on your turn but the 4 minutes will come into play as you pick the game up"

The direction of the question is
What happens as the alarm goes off ending the 4 minute turn?

Digger Goreman · Post by **Digger Goreman** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:12 pm

Everything stops and you clean up any necessary dice rolls....

Smeborg · Post by **Smeborg** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:44 pm

When I have played to the 4 minute rule, I have always played the convention that the player taking an action when time runs out is allowed to complete it. I suspect this may have been a published convention at some point (don't know whether it was in the rulebook).

The main problem for me with the 4 minute rule is that the opponent does too many things during it, such as:

- Deciding where to Sidestep to.
- Deciding whether and how to Pass Block.
- Deciding whether or not to use a skill (Block, Dodge, Fend, Wrestle, Stand Firm etc.).

My personal record was an opponent who took 75 seconds to Sidestep one player.

Some teams take longer to play against because they force more dice rolls (for example my Nurgle with Foul Appearance).

Some players are slow to set up before drives (there is nothing in the rulebook to curb this).

I like the principle of the 4 minute turn, however. I have started using a clock with newbies, but not enforcing it - I am very clear to them that it is just a guide. But after as few as 2 games with a clock, their play assumes a good rhythm.

At the end of the day, 90% of the excess time taken by slow players is in the "decision making" phase at the start of their turn.

One day soon I will get off my backside and experiment with a chess clock (which would allow set-up time to be included, as well as allowing your opponent's time to run during your turn, when he is doing something). 25 minutes per half would seem about right, so as to allow a complete game in under 2 hours (including pre- and post- match, tournament reporting and social niceties). When I started playing league Blood Bowl regularly, 1 hour 50 minutes was the standard completion time for experienced players (in Guildford, England). It was not rushed, but allowed 2 games in a club evening.

Hope this helps.

Digger Goreman · Post by **Digger Goreman** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:27 pm

BBRC has definitely introduced (some, but not all) additional dice rolls to muck with the 4 minute rule.... We use a stoppable timer and hit the stop/pause for rules lookups, scatter rolls, injuries (we go ahead and record cas pts and roll effect) and give a little extra time if the opponent is gonna take more than a second/two....

The way I get around some of the rolls (bone head/really stupid/wild animal/foul appearance) is to pick up a d6 with the block dice.... If I roll a "1", everything else is ignored....

Keeps the game moving along....

daloonieshaman · Post by **daloonieshaman** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:35 am

We do stop the clock for CAS ruesult, SPP writing, extra long opponent decision making, sometimes even opponent cross action (pass block, foul apperance)

Most of our games end easily under 2 hours as most players get faster (depending on opponent skills) as they get used to the timer and the thought of running out of time
If we set aside 2.5 hours for the whole event including BSing we are usually under time

khudzlin · Post by **khudzlin** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:14 am

with javabbowl, the clock stops when the opponent has to make a decision (sidestep, using apothecary, pass block, etc) -- it doesn't run for either coach, nor does it during setup (so players can take a break at those times)

additionally, the game is sped up because the program takes care of calculation and displays information about players you hover on (so coaches rarely need the 4 full minutes of their turn) -- but ofc, on tabletop, you need to do it all yourself

if, on tabletop, a coach was brandishing the 4 minute rule at me after taking one full minute to decide a sidestep, he'd get an earful, i can tell you

Post by **lunchmoney** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:41 am

khudzlin wrote:......if, on tabletop, a coach was brandishing the 4 minute rule at me after taking one full minute to decide a sidestep, he'd get an earful, i can tell you

if a coach waves the time limit at me, i wave it back.

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:47 am

Digger Goreman wrote:The way I get around some of the rolls (bone head/really stupid/wild animal/foul appearance) is to pick up a d6 with the block dice.... If I roll a "1", everything else is ignored....

Not the best system, as it gives you an unfair "advantage" on wheter you want to reroll the bonehead (etc), as you already know what the block result is.

Digger Goreman · Post by **Digger Goreman** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:32 am

Nope... we reroll EVERYTHING....

Man, I don't even think like that....