Dark Elves vs. Wood Elves, Sure Hands?

Jeremiah Kool · Post by **Jeremiah Kool** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:01 pm

Only three days until the tournament starts (TV 110 resurrection, one skill before each game, you know the opponents race), and I´m still a little worried about matchups against Wood Elves. I will be playing Dark Elves and am thinking about defense against Strip Ball Wardancers. Once I got beaten 0:5 with Undead vs. a Wood Elf team, which had only one RR.

Do I give Sure Hands to the Runner or to a Blitzer? Do I take Sure Hands at all? Will I use Dump Off (not a fan of this)?

Since I have no access to Guard, it seems to me there´s not much I can do. Except take Sure Hands and/or hunt the Wardancer(s), which is somewhat hard to to.

With no Sure Hands I´d give the Ball to a Witch Elf with Blodge, so at least the ball carrier will hopefully be standing.

What do you do vs. Strip Ball Wardancers, when you have no Guard or Sure Hands?

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:24 pm

well if he is going into hit your ball carrier

block and sure hands is better than just sure hands
av8 is better than av7 if he knocks you over

they both move the same distance

Jeremiah Kool · Post by **Jeremiah Kool** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:42 pm

Problem to me is if a Blitzer has Sure Hands, then he will be the main ball carrier in the remaining games. I feel that he should be "out there", blocking, running, etc.

With Sure Hands to not "waste" the skill choice, it´s hard to not let him pick it up every offense. Hmm...

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:51 pm

agaisnt non stripballing teams there isn't the need to use him as the ball carrier

i don't normally take sure hands with my chaos dwarfs even if i know i'm facing a strip ball wardancer

Jeremiah Kool · Post by **Jeremiah Kool** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:08 pm

Grumbledook wrote:agaisnt non stripballing teams there isn't the need to use him as the ball carrier

i don't normally take sure hands with my chaos dwarfs even if i know i'm facing a strip ball wardancer

You´re right. Could be also good on defense when you get the ball loose (depending on my opponents I will take Strip Ball on a Blitzer).

With Chaos Dwarves or other bashy teams with Guard I wouldn´t do that either (probably, I´m a bit paranoid with Wardancers and Strip Ball).

Elyoukey · Post by **Elyoukey** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:29 am

the problem is that woodelves have 2 wardancers, so even if he plays 1 stripball and you have a sure hand, he will then use the other one. If you pick up the ball with a blodger, he will use the strip ball.
The fact is that he will drop your ball, the aim is not to avoid this, but to plan on what happen next. Since you play dark elves, it is not a big deal to pick it up again next turn, so all you have to do is to avoid the ball falling out of your cage, the best way to do that is to have a larger cage, not the classical X position.
Also having a staber involved in the party will probably limit the wardancing ballet.

Fondu77 · Post by **Fondu77** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:32 am

Elyoukey wrote:the problem is that woodelves have 2 wardancers, so even if he plays 1 stripball and you have a sure hand, he will then use the other one. If you pick up the ball with a blodger, he will use the strip ball.
The fact is that he will drop your ball, the aim is not to avoid this, but to plan on what happen next. Since you play dark elves, it is not a big deal to pick it up again next turn, so all you have to do is to avoid the ball falling out of your cage, the best way to do that is to have a larger cage, not the classical X position.
Also having a staber involved in the party will probably limit the wardancing ballet.

+1. Give Tacke to your stabber and make him the WD PLAGUE

Jeremiah Kool · Post by **Jeremiah Kool** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:52 am

I don´t like Assassins in general, although he would be great vs. low AV and especially Wood Elves. My team set up has no place for one right now (2 x Witch, 3 x Blitzer, Runner, 5 x Line, 3 x RR).

A larger cage I have never tried to build against stuff like that, will see if I can get that done.

And if the Wardancer needs a Defender down / stumbles on a one die blitz to get to my Blitzer, then I feel just more safe. It will still happen, yes, hopefully a lot less.

Elyoukey · Post by **Elyoukey** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:22 am

Jeremiah Kool wrote:I don´t like Assassins in general, although he would be great vs. low AV and especially Wood Elves.

just put dodge on him and look how a swissknife this guy can look. Always where he needs to be, can lock a cage early in your turn, jump into the opponent's one with a5+reroll to go and stab this blodging ghoul/amazon/witchelf/whatever, go and tag a 4ST that don't have block and go away when you want, everything a line can do, he can do to.

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:39 am

My thinking is different- Sure Hands, but not to avoid strip ball, but rather to avoid re-roll usage, allow pick ups in tackle zones, when needed, etc. Wood Elves excel at a loose ball, and dark elves need the security.

Who do you give it to? A runner, a Blitzer, or a line-elf. Even a witch. You need the MA 7 with only one such player.

If you cage well enough, you can even use dump-off on the runner in lieu of sure hands- it's a 3+, 2+ roll, not so unlikely.

What to do with the other skill? I think Block, Tackle, or Wrestle on a Witch. Keep your ball near a sideline and caged, and then let him step through tackle zones and leap around... then push him out of bounds

OK, it doesn't work every time...

Elyoukey · Post by **Elyoukey** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:08 am

Jural wrote:Sure Hands, but not to avoid strip ball, but rather to avoid re-roll usage

With AG4 you do not need to avoid reroll usage. and if you need to pick the ball in a tackle zone, or you are in a critical situation for your offense, or you are in a very good position for your counter attack, the reroll are bought for those cases.

Willi · Post by **Willi** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:22 pm

I would probably try to lure the WD into a cage and blitz the WE ball carrier with wrestle, which means this turn or the next he will go down, probably w/o armour roll but will get the boot straight after that.

Repeat this process with any remaining wardancers.

I think wrestle is a great skill on a WE in a tourney, especially if you have two and the other can go the save route with block.

Carnis · Post by **Carnis** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:40 pm

Elyoukey wrote: With AG4 you do not need to avoid reroll usage. and if you need to pick the ball in a tackle zone, or you are in a critical situation for your offense, or you are in a very good position for your counter attack, the reroll are bought for those cases.

Totally disagree. I even regularily take surehands on ag5 players. The turn you pick the ball from a TZ you are likely to also need the reroll for something else (pass, leap, dodge).

Surehands has triplerole (prevents strip, prevents turnover on own offence, picking up the ball from TZs & then using RR elsewhere).

The only contest in my mind with SH is dodge, given you may have to roll dodge multiple times/turn & also works in blocks.

Optimal piece would be WE (dodge-> gets ball from TZs) or Blitzer (block+SH almost immune to WDs).

Elyoukey · Post by **Elyoukey** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:18 pm

Carnis wrote: Totally disagree. I even regularily take surehands on ag5 players. The turn you pick the ball from a TZ you are likely to also need the reroll for something else (pass, leap, dodge).

Actually AG5 players does not exists in my tourney world.
In a league, yes, surehand is a good skill even on an ag4 player, when this players get several skills, it is nice to have this.
But in a tourney, each skill must be carefully compared with what else you may take, and surehand will not give you such an advantage comparing to dodge, kick, or block (even on a lino).

nerdkingdan · Post by **nerdkingdan** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:57 pm

Dark elves I would go Nerves of Steel on a runner. Let him jump in blitz you and just toss the ball to nearby dark elf and go score a touch down.