Corner throw ins

Carnis · Post by **Carnis** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:04 pm

Hey,

This has come up a few times in our league, where desperate defenders take the ball with them to the corner of the endzone to cause a throw-in (after being blitzed) to prevent a score.

If player A is pushed out of bounds in the corner of the field, towards the corner of the field, which direction do we place the throw-in template? The actual rules only govern throw-ins which happen towards the sidelines, not the corner of the corner..

I assume it is supposed to be impossible to pushback towards the corner, and the blocker must instead choose one of the sidelines or the endzone & then the normal rules work (to some degree, anyway).

purdindas · Post by **purdindas** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:17 pm

Iv'e often wondered about this. Can someone please enlighten me and Carnis?

Odium Khan · Post by **Odium Khan** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:26 pm

I've never heard an official ruling on this, but why not make up a rule for it? Place ball in corner and roll Ye Olde D3 and have the three results along sideline, along end zone and diagonally. Simple.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:34 pm

yer this happened in one of my league games this year

we did 1-2 along the endzone
3-4 diagonally out from the corner
5-6 up the sideline

iirc it went up the sideline then bounced back out of bounds, they then threw it back and it went out of bounds at the endzone which then finally got thrown back into the middle of the half

Smeborg · Post by **Smeborg** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:19 pm

This really needs to be put into the rules, IMO. It's never been covered, so I guess it is due to JJ???

Strictly speaking, according to the rules, the scatter template can only be placed orthagonally. This can be made to work if the ball goes out of bounds orthagonally from the corner square. However, if the ball goes out on the diagonal, you have to house rule something - it's simply not covered by the rulebook.

tenwit · Post by **tenwit** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:06 am

Why do you have to house-rule something? The template is placed over the last square the ball was in, which is the corner square. It doesn't matter whether you place it along the side or along the bottom: pick one, check with your opponent. Roll the d6. If the ball goes out without going in, then you have to throw it in again. Since the ball hasn't been over the field, it still has the same "last square", so you just repeat.

I used to think that this was a problem, but that was when I thought that the template was placed related to a virtual square just off the pitch. However, the rules say that the template is placed relative to a real square on the pitch, to there isn't really a problem, other than the "odd case" where the ball goes out without even going over the pitch. The rules do handle the situation though.

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:28 am

tenwit wrote:It doesn't matter whether you place it along the side or along the bottom:

Well, it does matter. If you place it along the side line, it's going to end up (assume it stays on the field) it's going to stay around your EZ, if in the middle of the field. If you (equally validly) place it along the EZ line it's going to end up somewhere in your half, so you could choose which one is more advantageous for yourself (aor you r opponent could for them).

Tbh, we've always houseruled putting it diagonally on the field, after the infamous "16 dice rolls before it decided to stay on the field" debacle.

Wylder · Post by **Wylder** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:44 am

Even assuming a diagonal push, the pusher could choose to push 'out' using either boundary line. With this in mind, i'd say just let the pusher decide how to position the template.

It's simple and logical.

Smeborg · Post by **Smeborg** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:13 pm

tenwit and Wylder -

By allowing someone to decide which way to position the throw-in template, you are making a house rule. That's all I mean.

I'm not going to make a big deal of it - but my preference is for the situation to be covered in the rulebook, which I don't believe it is at the moment.

For example, the rulebook could say: "If the ball scatters into the crowd from one of the 4 corner squares of the pitch, then position the crowd throw-in template on the corner square facing diagonally into the pitch." Plus a diagram for clarity.

That's all. Hope this helps.

Wylder · Post by **Wylder** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:54 pm

The ONLY reason this can ever be a problem is if the blocker decides to deliberately not choose one sideline or other just to find a supposed 'flaw' in the rules. If the blocker just chooses not to push diagonally then this whole thread is pointless.

Notice how Galak hasn't visited this thread? It's because any sane person would just push to one sideline or other and be done with it, rather than coming up with some retarded argument about how the rules aren't good enough for you.

Also: Place the template diagonally? Wtf.

tenwit · Post by **tenwit** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:10 pm

Wylder wrote:The ONLY reason this can ever be a problem is if the blocker decides to deliberately not choose one sideline or other

Or if the ball scatters from the corner square, e.g. by being thrown there or when stripped from a player who has just been pushed into the corner square. Or maybe if a player used a ring of teleportation, or scattered that way after being TTMed.

Only one of several possibilities is deliberately avoidable, really.

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:22 pm

Or the corner square is the only available square to push to, or the player decides to sidestep there, or...

There are many reasons why the ball can scatter off from the corner square, and tbh, the number of times this has come up over the years, I'm surprised it hasn't been answered officially in the rulebook yet, even if only in the FAQ.

nerdkingdan · Post by **nerdkingdan** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:14 am

I see no evidence in my reading to indicate that you can choose the corner square.

Simply put, either the sidesteper or the pusher has to chose the side or the endzone. He doesn't have the option to pick neither. You really don't need a rule on this. He is either pushed off the side, or off the back.

Edit: After typing this I did think of a situation when it could happen but its not a push situation, the ball could scatter there, but not by a push back, as rules are written.

Smeborg · Post by **Smeborg** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:25 am

Thank you, Darkson. There are many reasons why the ball can scatter into the crowd from the corner square. There is nothing in the rulebook to say, either expressly or impliedly, that one of the players must "choose" in this situation for the ball to be thrown back from a particular direction.

A small matter, but a longstanding one, which is easy to fix by one sentence in the rulebook (I am not suggesting that my above wording is the best, or even correct - it was just a first suggestion).

Smeborg · Post by **Smeborg** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:32 am

nerdkingdan wrote:I see no evidence in my reading to indicate that you can choose the corner square.

Simply put, either the sidesteper or the pusher has to chose the side or the endzone. He doesn't have the option to pick neither. You really don't need a rule on this. He is either pushed off the side, or off the back.

Edit: After typing this I did think of a situation when it could happen but its not a push situation, the ball could scatter there, but not by a push back, as rules are written.

If the block result is a both down (defender has no Block, or attacker has Wrestle), the ball can scatter "diagonally" from the corner square. The same can happen if any type of catch or pick-up is dropped in the corner square.

However, the rulebook does not care about the direction in which the ball is scattered off the pitch. it only cares which square the ball is scattered from - this is the square from which the crowd throw-in takes place.

So the reason for the discussion on this thread (a perfectly reasonable discussion, I may add), is that the rulebook does not cater for the situation where a crowd throw-in is made from the corner square. Every coach has to house rule this situation, whether he is aware that he is house ruling or not.

Hope this helps.