6 skills per player matches

[UncleBob]

Some time ago, I realized that I've never played with fully improved players, so I started to change that. Every player was allowed to make an improvement roll, pick a skill, make a second roll and so on until he/her had six skills. I then played about 10 games with varying races.
First if you've never done it I strongly suggest to do so, it's fun and quite different to the games I was used to. Skills getting a quite different meaning/importance when they appear in high numbers and especially teams who didn't pick "cancel skills" such as Grab, Juggernaugt, Tackle and so on payed dearly for it. The right use of skills and to have a player with the right skill-set at the right time at the right place becomes much more important.
Now I came upon a few things during this games and they all refer to skills (these a only observations, and I thought a bit about it, but I havn't put them to test or anything, theory bowl therefore).

Pass Block versus Safe Throw
I had a couple of Beastman with Extra Arms, Very Long Legs, Disturbing Presence and Pass Block, who were actually pretty cool. They had a 4+ chance to intercept the ball and did so from time to time. Then I ran into an AG 5, Safe Throw, High Elf Thrower and bothering about the interception became pointless and I only moved the Beastman to use Disturbing Presence and/or to get into their TZ. Not so funny.
Suggestion: The Safe Throw roll can't be better than a 3+.

Strip Ball versus Sure Hands
I like Strip Ball but it has a bad side as it's very easy to cancel. Tackle can cancel Dodge but the Tackle player is overtaxed the moment there are two players with Dodge so it's sort of fair. Strip Ball though is too simple to cancel, as I found. The moment one player has Sure Hands the skill is out of the match.
Suggestion: Sure Hands works as Safe Throw does.

Stand Firm
I very much liked how the Blocks were working, Grab, Fend, Side Step, Tackle, Dodge, Wrestle and so on. It didn't happen that often anymore that a player went down but when the right skill was at hand the blocks worked, with one exception; Stand Firm. At one point the skill was dominating the game so entirely that absolutly nothing happened, and turn after turn went by without any change on the board.
Suggestion: Juggernaut cancels Stand Firm also during blocks.

Nerves of Steal and Big Hand
I liked that there was always a skill to cancel. This works extremly well with blocks but when it comes to cancel the agility side of the game it all looks a bit bleak. Beside canceling Dodge attempts with Diving Tackle and such and using one's TZs, the options to influence the offence are limited. And the moment the TZs are canceled one can only pray.
Suggestion: A new skill (Defender) to cancel NoS and Big Hand.

Leap
This skill is powerfull and can be used for many cunning plays and as long one isn't able to grow himself Tentacles there is no way of stoping it.
Suggestion: Diving Tackle works also against Leap.

Agility
Again I like the block system but the Agility side caused some trouble. Especially when the players had an AG of 5. One example were AG 5, Leap, Nerves of Steal players, such as Wood Elves, Elves and also Skaven or even teams such as Human can develop.
Suggestion: First the coach adds the positive modifications to his roll, but it can't become better than 2+ (modifications carrying the roll further are ignored) and then subtracts the negative modifications. (Unless this isn't already the rule, is it?)
This would only have an effect on AG 5+ players, players with AG 4 and Accurate throwing a quick pass and mutations. But it will keep AG 5+ at bay, for example an AG 5 player dodging out of a Diving Tackle TZ needs only a 3+ and that's too good keeping in mind that Diving Tackle is the ulimate option to handle dodge. With this change the roll for the AG 5 player would be a 4+, which is still good enough with a re-roll.

That's it, hope it's not all old tobacco.

[plasmoid]

Hi UncleBob,
I usually read threads like these with a sense of dread, but I actually found it quite interesting and well thought through
(For the record, I've played in a high TV league for many years, with tons of skills, but I've found that I enjoy games with TV180 or less a lot more).

Your points:
1. Pass Block vs Safe Throw.
Sounds like you've played it wrong - VVL cancels safe throw completely!
Even so, I do find Pass Block to be a bit weak. Allowing it to combo with jump up, to be used against hand offs, give an extra -1 to the pass/catch OR +1 to the intercept roll would all be cute.

2. Strip Ball vs Sure Hands.
Agreed actually. Strip Ball is rarely taken (except by wardancers), where-as sure hands is often taken, simply due to it's main ability. I wouldn't mind if the secondary ability came with a roll.

3. Juggernaut vs Stand Firm
I see your point. But where I'm coming from, Stand Firm isn't a very popular skill - so I'm not sure about buffing the skill that counters it.
Coincidentally, I'd love to see juggernaut and grab merged - as they're both somewhat marginal.

4. Nerves of Steel and Big Hand
I see your point. Perhaps revive the 2nd ed. skill Distract, which confers an extra -1 to pass/catch/pick-up in the players TZ. That extra -1 could then be unaffected by Big Hand and NOS.

5. Leap/Diving Tackle
There was a thread about this here recently. Actually pretty popular, considering the conservative attitude usually meeting most new ideas.

6. Agility
I see your point, but this one I'm not so keen on.

Cheers
Martin

[bjorn9486]

Leap
This skill is powerfull and can be used for many cunning plays and as long one isn't able to grow himself Tentacles there is no way of stoping it.
Suggestion: Diving Tackle works also against Leap.

How does Diving Tackle work against Leap, there is no Dodge roll?

[plasmoid]

It's a suggestion.
It would give -2 to a leap originating from the TZ of a player with DT.
Cheers
Martin

[bjorn9486]

It's a suggestion.
It would give -2 to a leap originating from the TZ of a player with DT.
Cheers
Martin

Oh, I'm sorry I thought it was already a rule. Though it sounds good to me; I think leaping is just a tad too easy.

[UncleBob]

I've changed the name as it seemed more appropriate.

Actually I'm having an open mind about this. It's just what I experienced during these matches.

And I forget the small print clause of Very Long Legs.
But I believe that Pass Block is a very strong skill, the option to move a player with Diving Tackle and Tackle into the receivers tackle zone is awesome, it's just the interception that is not working so well. The minus two handicap plus Safe Throw is tough.

I don't think the Distract/ Defender skill should give an additional -1 because only two players with Defender would place a heavy -4 of TZ on everyone who hasn't Nerves of Steal. That was my first idea, but it seems too ugly. So just canceling it as Tackle does.

And about this Agility thing (I thought I would get a thrashing), it also has an effect on AG 4 with Accurate and Strong Arm, and on AG 4 catching an accurate pass with Diving Catch. And learned skills might become pointless the moment a player gets +1 AG. So not realy appealing.
It's just when I place three TZ on a player I want, no, demand, an effect. And not: "Should I throw that short pass on a 3+ or rather Leap on a 2+ and throw the long bomb on a 2+ and by the way you can't intercept and my receiver has AG 5, Leap and Nerves of Steal. So what you gonna do?".
Well, I just thought to cap up Agility could make sense. Perhaps it's better to ignore only those positive mod's that carry the roll beyond 1+ and not 2+.

[UncleBob]

The 2+ is better.
And the roll for a long bomb could be never better than 4+.
Same for Diving Tackle and that was actually what I liked about it. Grand master of dodging, meets grand master of tackling, chances are fifty-fifty.
Sorry, did forget to include it.

[Carnis]

I find the 6skill per player argument more interesting than the rest of this discussion, although I also think sure hands vs strip should maybe come with a roll..

What would you pick for a 6skill skaven lineman, or a human or a norse lineman? And how would you rate such a player versus a beastman, or a dark elven lineman or a dwarf?

edit:
Oh, and since you mentioned skills and countering, why do you think AG rolls should be at best 50% turnover (when countered), when a block (the str team's main weapon) is at best a 97% with a reroll..

[prisma]

Suggestion: Juggernaut cancels Stand Firm also during blocks.

I like this suggestion immediately. Jugger is a skill that might need a boost, sfirm is a very mighty skill that needs more 'counter'skills.

[UncleBob]

To Carnis
My experience was: that you can handle/counter blocks (stay out of contact or pick skills such as Wrestle, Fend, Side Step, Guard, to annoy the blockers, especially High Elf Lineman with Wrestle, Dodge, Side Step, Fend, Guard and Diving Tackle are mean), but the options to handle high AG are very few. I agree that it is a problem with long bomb. But otherwise the rolls are still 2+ or 3+ unless the player runs into a tough defender, then it becomes 4+ (or worse), but with a re-roll it's still a 75% chance.

And for Skaven Lineman my chose would be Wrestle, Fend, Tackle and then of course a few doubles and profile inreases will add to that. And don't underestimate 5 Skaven Lineman with Wrestle and Fend. That's something I've learned. And the rating is done by the rules, Skaven Lineman 50K, Dwarf Blocker 70K. I'm kidding, but I didn't found those games out of balance as long as there are skills to counter the opposition. And to get those counter-skills, where none seemed to be, I wrote this few suggestions.