A change to Pro

Oxynot · Post by **Oxynot** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:47 pm

I was thinking about a change to Pro, since it does not seem like an overly useful skill expect for big guys, and that's after Block.

I haven't play tested it though, but thought I'd still throw it out there.
The revised description:

Pro

A player with this skill is a hardened veteran and such players do not make small mistakes: they either win big or lose big. To represent this, once per turn, you can re-roll any one dice roll that did not result in any 1s or attacker downs. You cannot use Pro to re-roll armour, injury or casualty rolls.

So in theory this would not save you from total disaster or help you with basic elf actions, but might be of use to AG3 players. I haven't weighed how much it would help big guys/blockers since you could also re-roll both downs, but it'd help you get a pow instead of a push.

Also it would remove one roll from the game (the 50/50 Pro check), which I think would be nice. You throw enough dice during one match anyway.

In your opinion would this type of change be good, bad or inconsequential? Or is there a possible abuse I have not seen yet.

edit: messed up the description in a critical way, corrected it. Added emphasis as well

edit: changed the restriction on using Pro from all 1s or skulls to any 1s or skulls

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:54 pm

So in theory this would not save you from total disaster or help you with basic elf actions

How does this not help elfs with pick-up, pass, catch, dodge, gfi?

Oxynot · Post by **Oxynot** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:56 pm

Ouch, sorry. I wrote the rule description opposite how I planned it. I will correct it the other way around.

So the idea is that you can re-roll anything else except natural 1s. In that case a AG3 player can benefit from the skill in situations when a AG4+ one can not.

SillySod · Post by **SillySod** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:47 pm

I love it, really nice change while keeping the flavour of the skill intact.

Essentially you are changing it from a skill that you can only risk using in desperate circumstances into a skill that you can only use about half the time but when you use it you can actually use it without increasing the risk of turnover. You are still making coaches think their moves through carefully because they cant rely on the skill right from the start of the move - just when actually using it.

There are several nice extra effects you'll get from "anything but a one"...
- suddenly it isnt a cheap way around negatraits, big guys and vampires will get still great use out of pro but they remain interesting
- it isnt quite as good as other re-roll skills for any given action
- it isnt too reliable
- its great for linemen and other averagey stat players, as more skills get added often the common man tends to drop in effectiveness compared to bull centaurs and the like. This counterbalances that a little (the only other skill that does this is dauntless).

My only concern is the ability to re-roll blocks. I would say that if any of the dice rolled are ones or skulls then pro cannot be used. That way pro wont become an essential blocking/blitzing skill although it will still be pretty useful for it (it makes absolutely sure that wrestle and block are better blocking skills).

Again... wow, nice idea

Oxynot · Post by **Oxynot** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:11 pm

SillySod wrote:My only concern is the ability to re-roll blocks. I would say that if any of the dice rolled are ones or skulls then pro cannot be used. That way pro wont become an essential blocking/blitzing skill although it will still be pretty useful for it (it makes absolutely sure that wrestle and block are better blocking skills).

True, I admit I hadn't thought the Block part through. I will change it so that if any of the block dice thrown is a skull, Pro can't be used.

bjorn9486 · Post by **bjorn9486** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:29 pm

I like it and agree with what SillySod said; there are better skills for doing better things but this is a nice general one.

purdindas · Post by **purdindas** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:18 pm

I think this would be a nice change to the skill. It would definetely make it more popular.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:11 am

Make it so that Pro can only be used on a Block which results in a push back (including defender stumbles for players with dodge).

Melipone · Post by **Melipone** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:30 am

ianwilliams wrote:Make it so that Pro can only be used on a Block which results in a push back (including defender stumbles for players with dodge).

I was trying to think of something along those lines, and you've said it exactly. Basically it shouldn't be that a 3 dice block has less chance of being re-rolled than a 2 dice block...the block result that would be chosen is what should be used. Perfect.

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:58 am

For AG rolls, I like the idea. The skill is multipurpose, and even benefits elves who want to pick the ball up in tackle zones, or in bad weather, etc, but it's better for AG 3 teams. Also, it's a great combo skill, so teams that have no skills shouldn't take it... all this means that it's a great skill for humans, orcs, Norse, and some other teams... which I love.

The blocking thing could use some small tweak... I like Ian's interpretation, but there was nothing wrong with the original either.

Oxynot · Post by **Oxynot** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:55 am

Ruleswise it would be difficult to word that Po could only be used on blocks that resulted in a pushback where both players stand, since the use of Dodge is optional.

But changing it to affect only pure push back results, not defender stumbles, might work.

I'm a bit worried though if it would become too useful once the player get Block? In its current state it means you could re-roll block dice most of the time nad thus increase the chance of defender knockdown with not much risk to the blocker. Assuming you tend to block with two dice most of the time. Would changing it to only affect one dice rolls remedy the situation?

But my main focus has been on the AG side of it. It would give an AG3 player almost elf-like ball handling skills, almost

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:04 pm

Well, my idea for blocking would be that you can re-roll a block with pro, but must do so on one die only. This allows you to re-roll a double skull or a push, but carries with it a 1/6 or 1/3 chance of turnover.

It makes 1 die blocks more reliable, but it would need to be re-written for half die blocks.

Oxynot · Post by **Oxynot** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 6:03 pm

Ok, been mulling this over a bit and this is what I think:

I'd keep the AG part as it is, as it seems to do what was planned.

The block would still be allowed when no skulls was rolled (or possibly no skulls and no both downs), but the re-roll was done with one dice.

On a one, two or three dice block it would be a risky way to try get a knock down.

On an against block the actual re-roll would be safer than the original roll, but you still had to take the plunge on the initial throw.

With these changes it feels like my goal would have been achieved: get rid of the Pro 50/50 roll, but still retain the skill as a multipurpose re-roll that is somewhat worse than a "real" re-roll would be.

Also the skill could be better relied on, since there is no arbitrary chance that when you choose to use the skill, you just could not.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 7:24 pm

Ooh...

Pro can re-roll any one six-sided die that does not result in "1" or "Attacker Down" ("Both Down" can be re-rolled). The new result must be taken if the choice is left to the player making the roll, and is treated as the use of a skill to re-roll, so is exclusive of other skill re-rolls or TRR counters.

No different from proposal on AG rolls. On blocks, it would be good on 1d and better blocks, but worthless on 1/2d blocks.

funnyfingers · Post by **funnyfingers** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:35 pm

Would it help the blocking if it were you can not reroll if any of the dice are skulls, but a player with Pro can never use a team reroll?

This would work for 1, 2, or 3 dbs. Even though less of a chance to reroll on a 3db, it suits the Pro as he already did the pro like thing to begin with and blocked with 3 dice...