A change to Pro

funnyfingers · Post by **funnyfingers** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:36 pm

Would it help if it were you can not reroll if any of the dice are 1s/skulls, but a player with Pro can never use a team reroll?

This would work for 1, 2, or 3 dbs. Even though less of a chance to reroll on a 3db, it suits the Pro as he already did the pro like thing to begin with and blocked with 3 dice...

SillySod · Post by **SillySod** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:03 pm

funnyfingers wrote:but a player with Pro can never use a team reroll?

I'm not really a fan of skills which potentially make a player worse... although it might be an interesting line to take if you want to add power to the skill.

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:40 pm

I like the MBBL2 skill "Bless" as an alternative Pro:

"The player can add +1 to any of his on-pitch rolls except Armour, Injury, and Block. The skill can only be used once per a turn and MUST be declared before the dice roll. If you reroll a failed Blessed dice roll, the reroll also gets the +1 bonus."

Melipone · Post by **Melipone** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:05 pm

Oxynot wrote:Ruleswise it would be difficult to word that Po could only be used on blocks that resulted in a pushback where both players stand, since the use of Dodge is optional.

But changing it to affect only pure push back results, not defender stumbles, might work.

I don't see that much of a problem with this...a defender with dodge could choose not to use it and fall over from a "defender stumbles", thus preventing the attacker's use of pro (assuming the defender was trying to avoid a "both down" result). I can't see a situation where Ian's suggestion wouldn't work. Something like:

"A block may be re-rolled with Pro if the block would result in the defender being pushed back but not knocked down"

seems unambiguous.

stormmaster1 · Post by **stormmaster1** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:07 pm

going back to the original post, you say it seems like an overly useful skill, and at a glance might seem so, but in reality isn't taken very often and doesn't make such a big difference in practice.

the "Bless" skill looks too strong: would give humans AG4 for any important rolls and we'd see more 2+ leaper elves.

Oxynot · Post by **Oxynot** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:55 pm

Stormmaster, in fact I was claiming that it is not a good skill, I don't think I've chosen it many times.

My main gripe with it is the 50-50 chance that it does nothing. That in mind my goal is to change it so that is remains versatile, yet worse than a specialized re-roll like Catch.

So in essence I want to maintain approximetely the same amount of usefulness, but lose the unnecessary randomness without making the new version overtly complex.

I also like the idea that the skill would not benefit those who can accomplish things on a 2+ already, but give a leg up to more risky attempts. Hence no re-rolling 1s.

stormmaster1 · Post by **stormmaster1** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:30 pm

sorry,

just read what it actually says, not what i thought it said. just ignore my post above. it sounds like a good idea.

duckwing · Post by **duckwing** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:51 pm

Melipone wrote:
Oxynot wrote:Ruleswise it would be difficult to word that Po could only be used on blocks that resulted in a pushback where both players stand, since the use of Dodge is optional.

But changing it to affect only pure push back results, not defender stumbles, might work.
I don't see that much of a problem with this...a defender with dodge could choose not to use it and fall over from a "defender stumbles", thus preventing the attacker's use of pro (assuming the defender was trying to avoid a "both down" result). I can't see a situation where Ian's suggestion wouldn't work. Something like:

"A block may be re-rolled with Pro if the block would result in the defender being pushed back but not knocked down"

seems unambiguous.

Why would a defender ever chose to fall on a "defender stumbles" rather than on a "both down"?

Melipone · Post by **Melipone** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:55 pm

duckwing wrote:Why would a defender ever chose to fall on a "defender stumbles" rather than on a "both down"?

If it was a 2 or 3 dice block and the ball carrier w/o block getting pushed back and knocked over means the ball is more likely to land in a secure position near your players. Something tactical like that. It's the only situation I can think of where the use of the dodge skill has an impact on the "push back only" proposition for the skill.

stormmaster1 · Post by **stormmaster1** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:46 am

more likely to not use dodge if the pushback puts you on the sideline and the attacker has frenzy

Oxynot · Post by **Oxynot** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:16 am

Ok, returning to the subject after absorbing the feedback, I came up with this simplification:

Pro

A player with this skill is a hardened veteran and such players do not make small mistakes: they either win big or lose big. To represent this, once per turn, you can re-roll any one dice that did not result in a natural 1 or attacker down. You cannot use Pro to re-roll armour, injury or casualty dice.

So now instead of re-rolling a whole roll, you only re-roll one dice. Feels like a nice and simple solution. Do you see any obvious flaws? Do you find it more or less appealing than the original Pro?

Melipone · Post by **Melipone** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 1:58 pm

Somewhere you would also need to clarify that re-rolling one dice as part of a 2 or 3 dice block means that the whole roll (or the other non-rerolled dice for that matter) cannot be rerolled.

I've seen many posts here from people asking if it's possible to reroll just one dice from a roll involving 2 or 3 dice...I'm not a massive fan of changing that convention and making it possible in some circumstances. Another thing you might want to consider...how would this work for Tentacles/Shadowing? Right now Pro forces a re-roll of both dice used.

mubo · Post by **mubo** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:52 pm

Joemanji wrote:I like the MBBL2 skill "Bless" as an alternative Pro:

"The player can add +1 to any of his on-pitch rolls except Armour, Injury, and Block. The skill can only be used once per a turn and MUST be declared before the dice roll. If you reroll a failed Blessed dice roll, the reroll also gets the +1 bonus."

That's a lot better than pro, it is almost a situational extra arms/two heads...
Could AG4 players take this as well?
~~~
Don't like the idea of being able to reroll one of a set of dice either.

~~~
How about: when this player uses a TRR, on a 4+ the TRR is not expended?

SillySod · Post by **SillySod** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:53 pm

mumbojumboist wrote:How about when this player uses a TRR, on a 4+ the TRR is not expended?

Nice!

Oxynot · Post by **Oxynot** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:17 am

mumbojumboist wrote: Don't like the idea of being able to reroll one of a set of dice either.

How about: when this player uses a TRR, on a 4+ the TRR is not expended?

My initial reaction is positive towards this suggestion, since it accomplishes my original goal: it makes Pro players at least as reliable as a regular player.

On the other hand this version is useless if you are out of TRR. In a bad game you'd have a skill that you can't use at all for half the match. I have to ponder about this a bit more.