Just wondering where Bretonians went

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:14 pm

it isn't the roster that would be a problem, can add the roster if it is balanced just not as brettonians

id rather see something from the BB world used as the theme and not the warhammer

parintachin · Post by **parintachin** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:15 pm

Warpstone wrote:[...]Galak was quite nice about it and let us help Plasmoid refine the roster in a real play-testing environment, but it was clearly not going to be accepted for LRB6 which means several years before the roster can even be reconsidered for inclusion.
[...]

(emphasis mine)

What I'm asking is if there's an actual, rational Reason for this.

You, and others have pointed out that the team is pretty well balanced; balance in BB being a relative thing in the first case anyway.

There are obviouslty ppl out there who are willing to shell out real money buying minis for that team.

So why not include it? If nothing else, in the "new teams" thing, which has at least one team which is waay farther out than Brettonia would be.

Does it Really come down to a few very vocal lobbyists here?

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:22 pm

brettonians were never made experimental

only experimental things that have been tested by the wider community on that basis are put up to the BBRC for discussion

one leauge using them as houes rules doesn't effect that

ppl can still make a team from brettonians minis if they like, just like they can use space marines as well

so they won't be uncluded on the basis of them not being experimental

parintachin · Post by **parintachin** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:25 pm

So someone stopped them from being made experimental.

Why?

And comparing them to space marines is absurd.

Warpstone · Post by **Warpstone** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:54 pm

parintachin wrote:So someone stopped them from being made experimental.

Why?

And comparing them to space marines is absurd.

Plasmoid will have a better clue than me, but I think Jervis piped in at one point and pretty much said he didn't care for it. I can't tell you why he thought it was a bad idea, but regardless, even burning issues that needed fixing like Khemri faced challenges getting into the experiment stage.

I think there just wasn't enough steam for a Bret team to get pushed forward while more existing rules were addressed.

cyagen · Post by **cyagen** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:54 pm

Brettonians in BB is a very touchy issue, do not stir it up too much. We are now in a kind of cold war about the issue with the pro and cons agreeing not to troll the board with the subject, so thread very carefully on that my friend.

For the record, I'm in the I do not care camp. Nothing against the Bretts but do not care if they stay a house rule.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:27 pm

on the flip side why should they be added though

the whole questing knight thing isn't related to the blood bowl world

come up with an alternate for the roster like norse or amazon races then there would be more backing

it is the whole connecting the game to being warhammer that really irks, been trying to get away from that hence the renaming of a number of players back to blitzer catcher etc, the high elf team for instance

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 7:12 pm

Grum has got to the heart of the issue IMO. JJ moved the BB world closer to the WFB one for 3rd edition (1993). This included models and names that looked like the players had walked off the battlefield. Phoenix Warrior, Stormvermin etc. This was something hated by the majority of BB players, and I think the reaction to Brets has something to do with not wanting to go back to those days.

In addition to this Plasmoid, the team's driving force, wants them solely because of their background. He doesn't want this roster by another name, he wants a Brettonian team with any (fitting) roster. It has been a long road, but I have come to respect his cause (even if I'm still not sure I like it). So when people here see Brets, they think Plasmoid and they think WFB armies.

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:08 pm

Hi parintachin
The roster won't become official. No way. Sorry.
I strongly recommend that you just house rule it in, if you like it. Check out:
http://www.plasmoids.dk/bbowl/BBBretonnians.htm

As for the why.... well:
A poll on TBB has shown that the majority doesn't want a Bretonnian team. It was a few years ago, and not about this particular roster, but onbiously not wanting any Bretonnian team means not wanting this one either.

Perhaps I should say that the majority of TBB respondents doesn't want it. In short, there are more people passionately against it than passionately for it. What the silent majority wants - who knows, they're silent

AFAIK a previous version of the team was pitched to JJ along with a lot of the vault. I wasn't there, but I've been told that JJ felt that Bretonnians would be "just another human team".

So they've never been experimental. Case closed.
(Oh, and as Joemanji has pointed out, I've probably ticked off some people by campaigning for this team, so now they hate the idea (even more))

As for some of the objections against the team, I just have to comment:
theres not a skyre, eshin, pestilens or moulder skaven team is there?
True, but IMO, those are much smaller factions. If it's big and distinct enough to have an army in WFB, it could just as well have a BB team.

I see the BB-world more as a parallel universe, more "steam-punk" than the current world of WHFB. SO yeah, Brets dont belong there.
If there are "steam-punk" high elfs, "steam punk" skaven and "steam punk" dwarfs, there could be "steam punk" Brets.

on the flip side why should they be added though
Knowing that they won't be added - I'd say:
Because there are fans of Bretonnians and the "Bretonnian spirit" who wants to cross over from WFB. People who like the minis and the flavour, and want to play them (and not a weak proxy) in BB.

the whole questing knight thing isn't related to the blood bowl world
The team is based on Bretonnian fluff - so the ruling aristocracy is represented by young reckless aristocrats. Yes, you could call them Questing Knights - but they've been called blitzers for a long time.

Cheers
Martin

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:54 pm

parintachin wrote:Saying the BB world isn't the warhammer world is pure, undiluted nonsense.

However, it's "nonsense" that the games creator has confirmed, so not "nonsense" at all.

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:01 pm

I really think it's a lot simpler-

1) Not a lot of people are big fans of Brettonians the way that some people are "Dwarf" or "Elf" fans. Even "Amazons" and "Norse" have much bigger followings in fantasy as a whole. This isn't Blood Bowl only, I think it's pretty much across the board.

2) The rosters presented weren't extremely fun, balanced, or interesting. Plasmoid's roster now may actually be those things, but it was a much later add. Oh, and some would claim it looks dull.

So you don't have an overall fan base which pushes for the team despite their lack of balance in early iterations (e.g. Vampires, Chaos Pact, Nurgle, Underworld.) And you don't have really interesting game mechanics which people have never used before (e.g. Slann.) There's also a lack of Blood Bowl specific Brettonian fluff (e.g. Ogres) and no designer interest in pushing it through (e.g. Khemri, Pro Elves, Necromantic.)

It's pretty simple, the community and the proposed roster and concept just haven't fallen in love. The same way "Blood Bowl 40k" never took off, or a Khorne, Slannesh, or Tzeentch themed Chaos team.

I have to say, this doesn't overall bother me. Because the BBRC and JJ have been pretty good at getting the teams pushed for into the game. Since 2003, Vampires and Ogres have been made official, Nurgle made official, and Chaos Pact, Underworld, and Slann teams are THIS close. If a roster doesn't make the list, it is fair territory for house rules, after all!

Hmm, I'm not sure the word "Simpler" should have been used in the first line of this post. Maybe "Rantier"?

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:12 pm

plasmoid wrote:on the flip side why should they be added though
Knowing that they won't be added - I'd say:
Because there are fans of Bretonnians and the "Bretonnian spirit" who wants to cross over from WFB. People who like the minis and the flavour, and want to play them (and not a weak proxy) in BB.

Of course, using that arguement gives equal weight to those wanting Clan-specific Skaven teams and Beast of Chaos, Mortals of Chaos, Daemons of Chaos and power-specific Chaos teams as opposed to the current Chaos roster (which, tbh, I'd all much rather see before a Bret roster

).

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:33 pm

Really it came down to discussions with BB players, polls on TBB, etc.

The felling at the end of that was that a lot of our focus was bringing back more 2ed stuff to the game. Brettonians while in 1ed were not in 2ed and so they did feel BB-y enough. Add to this the roster didn't feel as fresh and new in terms of what it offered as the other 3 did.

Tom

frogbear · Post by **frogbear** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 3:21 pm

I personally would allow them (plasmoid's) in our league to be tested and just for fun.

Also, if someone made a custom team up and painted it for Bloodbowl, AND the list had been extensively tested to be balanced, then you would have to be one hard bastard not to allow the guy to play them.

I draw the line at Daemon teams and the like myself. If there are interesting and clever diversions to existing team structures that do not give coaches a whole bunch of min-maxed skills, then I don't see a problem.

House rules are fine.

You cannot blame tournament organizers for wanting to stick to the official rules. Not everything for home games/leagues need to be official. I wish people would just accept that and get on with the game for what it is supposed to be - an enjoyable pastime.

And for the record, GW has ALWAYS encouraged people to make their own rules and play their own ideas.

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:24 pm

Hi all,
Darkson said:

Of course, using that arguement gives equal weight to those wanting Clan-specific Skaven teams and Beast of Chaos, Mortals of Chaos, Daemons of Chaos and power-specific Chaos teams as opposed to the current Chaos roster

I think the rest of my post explains why Skaven clan teams and to some extent also Chaos diety teams don't deserve teams.

Beastman, Chaos Mortal (Chaos Pact?) and Daemon supporters could make the same argument. And it wouldn't bother me. I don't remember seeing anyone asking for a Mortals team - except JJ. Beastmen actually came pretty close - they were part of the vault for quite a while (just the current chaos team with Warriors renamed to Bestigor. On top of that, there have been several threads on beastmen teams. Don't remember anyone asking for daemon teams either - except me

. Bretonnians however, I've seen coaches ask for them before. I've asked some of them why, and most of those were fans of Bretonnia in WFB/WFRP.
For me, that's the difference.

Cheers
Martin

PS - also, I agree that the BB world isn't the WFB world. But there is no clear reason why there couldn't be BB-Brets, when there are other species/nations from WFB existing in a BB-esque variant in BB.