Just wondering where Bretonians went

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:33 pm

I just revisited Darksons old poll.
The numbers really aren't that bad. IMO.
38% would like Brets in BB.
62% would not.

If such a poll had been made for Slann, Underworld or Pact, I don't think they would have fared much better. Slann being the most likely exception IMO.

On top of that, a lot of posters chiming in on that 17 page monster thread state that they really just want no more teams, period.

Finally, I think that the current (and final) line-up deals with a lot of the specific things about the old team that rubbed people the wrong way.

Not that it matters

Just house rule them if you like them, and to hell with it

spubbbba · Post by **spubbbba** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 2:51 pm

plasmoid wrote: PS - also, I agree that the BB world isn't the WFB world. But there is no clear reason why there couldn't be BB-Brets, when there are other species/nations from WFB existing in a BB-esque variant in BB.

But there are BB Bretts, they are the Human Team. Even the fluf fof 2nd edition supports it with them as the Bright Crusaders.

There were rules for daemons and greater daemons back in 3rd edition and they were published in the journal if memory serves along with the old Norse team. I've seen quite a few versions over the years but none of them really worked so have thankfully been left as house rules.

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:59 pm

AFAIK Bright Crusaders were Bretonnians in 1st ed. and gold ed.
Edit: Oh hey. While 3rd ed lists Bright Crusaders as "human", it also lists Vynheim Valkyries as "human" - yet somehow we still got the Norse team.

And I know about those I'll fated teams. All I'm saying is that I don't really remember anyone posting that they were Daemon players wanting to cross over into BB. Ever. With Brets, I've seen it more than once.

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:49 am

IIRC JJ made Daemon teams official briefly in "4th edition".

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:53 am

Hi Joemanji,
absolutely - and stinking piles of cr*p they were

But you know me, I'd have no problem with a daemon team in BB.

But as long as nobody seems to be asking for it, I don't see a need to provide one.

Cheers
Martin

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:02 pm

Hey, I want them, as well as the beastie team, chaos mortal team and power-specificrosters. I just know that as they have no chance of becoming official, or even "recommneded house-rule" there's no point in keeping going on about them.

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:20 pm

Yep, JJ's versions were appauling.

I'd LOVE a Daemon team in Blood Bowl though. I think there's loads of scope for them.

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:48 pm

Hi Darkson,
I hope nothing in this thread is implying that I'm pushing Brets to anything other than House Rule status in any way.

I can't prevent others from asking about them, and merely wanted to give a helpful reply.

Mind you, I can't see a feeble argument without refuting it - but I'm not crazy enough to think that it will affect the Bret team's status in any way.

Oh Joe - you know me. I'd love a daemon team too. You've seen my version.
Cheers
Martin

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:57 pm

plasmoid wrote:Hi Darkson,
I hope nothing in this thread is implying that I'm pushing Brets to anything other than House Rule status in any way.

No, I realise that, just saying why I haven't bothered posting for the various Chaos teams.
Perhaps the Bret-lovers are just the most vocal minority?

kk · Post by kk » Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:13 pm

Being new in here and reading this discussion makes me think that the only reason why there is no Bretonnian team is that someone "high in command chain" personally has something against them. If everyone agrees that the team is balanced and there are players who would like to play the team, the only problem is that Bretonnians do not have some certain given status. That's a pity even though I personally wouldn't be playing them right away.

The best part with the current LRB is that the rules are almost universally accepted and there is no need to use tons of house rules like it was during 3rd edition. Now people from different gaming groups can meet and play the same game. So I fully support that teams which have been playtested and done well to be included in the official rules.

I can understand the argument that there are already enough teams and no more is necessary. However, that argument seems to have been overruled already as there are several teams that offer not that much new to the game - just some more or less minor tweaks to other teams. I am talking about teams like Pro elves, Khemri, Necromantic and Underworld in here.

But thanks for the current state of BB rules anyway. The game is great!

spubbbba · Post by **spubbbba** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:13 am

kk wrote:Being new in here and reading this discussion makes me think that the only reason why there is no Bretonnian team is that someone "high in command chain" personally has something against them. If everyone agrees that the team is balanced and there are players who would like to play the team, the only problem is that Bretonnians do not have some certain given status. That's a pity even though I personally wouldn't be playing them right away.

That's not true, there isn't a high demand for Brettonians in Bloodbowl, Plasmoid quoted the poll done on here that the majority of coaches didn't want them full stop. More people are strongly against them being added than strongly for, but of course the vast majority of players didn't see the poll or care enough to vote so it's hard to gauge their opinion.

Also the rosters that have been suggested to reprsent them have had mixed responses, personally i've disliked every one i've seen so even if a brettonian team was likely it would be very hard to come up with a roster that was different enough from humans to be worthwhile. Another difficulty is having it represent Brettonia and it's differences from the rest of the warhammer world with the main thing that makes them stand out is riding horse which you can't do on the BB pitch.

The biggest weakness i can see is what would Brettonian Bloodbowl players look like. Some of the early 3rd ed teams did look too much as if they had walked off the battlefield and so newer teams did go back to their 2nd edition roots, just look at the 3 human teams.
As GW is mostconcerned with selling models what would the Brett models bring? All the conversikon i've seen have either been humans with Brett heads (which would suit the human rules) or warhammer models with the weapons cut off so not looked Bloodbowl enough.

kk wrote: I can understand the argument that there are already enough teams and no more is necessary. However, that argument seems to have been overruled already as there are several teams that offer not that much new to the game - just some more or less minor tweaks to other teams. I am talking about teams like Pro elves, Khemri, Necromantic and Underworld in here.

But thanks for the current state of BB rules anyway. The game is great!

As i understand it Pro elves were originally going to replace high elves as 2nd edition just had elves and dark elves. Undead were effectively going to be broken into 2 parts as they had in WHFB and be replaced with necros and khemri (and vampires sort of too). But a lot of players didn't want to lose these 2 teams so they wre kept, undead in particular are one of the key BB teams and are more interesting than either khemri or necro.

That being said i do know quite a lot of players who dislik pro elves and khemri and would happily see them go. I've heard a few rumours that the khemri changes were to kill them off by the back door by nerfing them so much.

kk · Post by kk » Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:34 pm

spubbbba wrote:
kk wrote:Being new in here and reading this discussion makes me think that the only reason why there is no Bretonnian team is that someone "high in command chain" personally has something against them. If everyone agrees that the team is balanced and there are players who would like to play the team, the only problem is that Bretonnians do not have some certain given status. That's a pity even though I personally wouldn't be playing them right away.
That's not true, there isn't a high demand for Brettonians in Bloodbowl, Plasmoid quoted the poll done on here that the majority of coaches didn't want them full stop. More people are strongly against them being added than strongly for, but of course the vast majority of players didn't see the poll or care enough to vote so it's hard to gauge their opinion.

I didn't say that there is a high demand for Bretonnians. I said that there are players who would like to play the team as it seems. Probably there are even more than what some of the current teams have. If one poll had been opened for each Bretonnians, Pro Elves, Khemri, Necromantic and Underworld at that time I am pretty confident that the results would have been very similar in each case. The main reason people didn't want Bretonnians was that they didn't want any new teams. Still the only team out is Bretonnians.

The lack of suitable models is probably the best point there is. But does this stop Slann team from making it? GW range doesn't even have any particular good models for all Norse team members...

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:56 pm

kk wrote:The main reason people didn't want Bretonnians was that they didn't want any new teams. Still the only team out is Bretonnians.

Not true - it was a reason, but I don't think it was the main reason.

And don't mix Bret and Underworld up with Pro, Khemri and Necro - they were added (or not) to the rules at completely different times.

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:18 pm

My impression over the years has been the following regarding new teams being added. Also please note, when I say "the community" I don't mean 100% of the community, I just mean the push came from the fans and players, not GW or the BBRC:

Slann- A team with a unique playstyle and some 2nd Edition history. Not much community push to make the team, but Galak in particular (?) really did like them, and the team plays so different that it "Stuck"

Chaos Pact- The Chaos All-Stars, the most famous team in the game, were a Chaos Pact team, and there have been attempts to reproduce them since this edition was 20 minutes old

All attempts did pretty poorly, but I think the community really wanted this one, and eventually an acceptable team was found.

Underworld- It shocked me, but there were a lot of coaches who really wanted this team. I don't recall any members of the BBRC having this as a pet team, I think the community as a whole wanted this one, and the rules were straightforward.

Pro Elves- As mentioned earlier, this was GW driven to replace the High Elves/ sell new minis/ put off BB fans. I honestly didn't play Blood Bowl much from 2000 to 2003, so I missed where this team came from, it's all been hear-say.

Khemri- GW driven in an attempt to "split" the undead. I'm not sure how popular they have ever been, and they have been a thorn in the side of many players and the BBRC for years. However, JJ wins!

Necromantic- GW driven attempt to "split" the undead. The team is fairly popular, if considered to be a weaker version of the Undead team.

Vampire- GW introduced, and the community seemed to like this team despite it being nearly unplayable/ completely random in previous editions with OFAB. It was only community support, the models being cast, and the BBRC working that made this team a success (I love them.)

Ogres- Actually, I missed this one completely. I don't know who's idea it was, but there were models cast and people play them. Their rules have been heavily changed, and currently you can't even buy BB snotlings!

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:25 pm

So if I'm accurate enough for it to count, it looks like you need the following to be added as a new team (and maybe good timing, models, and some luck too!)

1) GW to push for you

OR

2) The community to push for you

I don't think there is anything else that works. BBRC members have never pushed a team out that the community didn't want, I think. Every team that is experimental right now really has been (in some weird way) blessed by the community.

And all the previous ones were pretty much mandated by GW and supported by the fans (and improved by the BBRC in most cases.)