Just wondering where Bretonians went

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:34 pm

Jural is right on pretty much all of them, except the Chaos Pact. That's JJs baby, as he always wanted to be able to field the Chaos All-Stars. Initial reaction across the (posting) community was "meh", but the reaction to it got better as the team evolved (mainly down to Galak and the posters in the Vault). Iirc the initial JJ proposal was very "wrong".

But basically, the Chaos Pact team's there becasue JJ wants it.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:57 pm

Jural does have it basically right.

The 3 new teams that are BBRC fully endorsed and NAF approved have the following origin story as best my memory recalls the events.

First trigger ... during the Vault process JJ tells me that he wants to rename the Chaos Warriors on the Chaos team to Bestigors and create a new team to be added to the game that per his instructions HAD to be able to EASILY (ie not using doubles skill rolls) create the Chaos All-Stars team from the 2nd edition Star Players book.

The initial team was rubbish ... the final roster now in use was one that I created to replace JJ's initial thoughts on the team however I had Loner on the Renegades. During the playtesting process Loner was felt too harsh. I don't remember who suggested Animosity but that became the accepted replacement.

Okay the first trigger is the HUGE key here to the story. JJ was the one who said to me ... I want to bring back a 2nd edition team and add it to the game ... make it happen for me.

This event led to a conversation between JJ and I about other teams in 2nd (or 1st) edition that could be considered as well. We discussed the Brettonian, Slann and Underworld teams. JJ said to me ... create the best rosters you can Tom and playtest them and get back to me with my Chaos All-Stars team.

The Slann roster was pretty much the same as it is now. However when first introduced to the Vault it had 70k Linemen. Playtesting quickly revealed that 60k was a more appropriate price for team balance. This team has been something I've been working on for years and was a team that had Doubleskulls backing who at one point was the co-lead on the Vault with me after JJ stepped away from it. So years of work and MBBL2 testing on the roster meant this one slid in very easily.

The Brettonian roster suffered a three strike death. One ... of all the teams ... it fluxed the most roster-wise during playtesting. It just never settled in on a team that it liked which suggested to JJ that it just wasn't a refined concept ready to go. Two ... of all the 4 new teams being batted around in the Vault ... it had the least community and BBRC acceptance. And the big one was #3 ... when it came down to the discussion with JJ about all the results on the 3 new teams ... he just didn't like the concept of adding Brettonians to BB anymore (even though he did it temporarily with Gold edition (but then the Daemon teams and other really things that he no longer backed appeared in Gold as well)).

Finally the Underworld team ... although he is quiet on the boards now ... at the time Darthnoir was an active community member. He had been campaigning with Jervis and Andy Hall for years to allow him to publish his version of the Underworld team in Blood Bowl Magazine. It was a version that his own league had been testing and he really wanted the team to get into the game. When JJ said ... he was open to considering new teams for the Vault I called Darthnoir on the phone to discuss his version of the team as I'd been helping him contact Andy Hall about his article as well as proofreading his submissions to Andy for the Underworld team. In MBBL playtesting Joemanji suggested that the Goblins should be able to mutate on normal skills rolls to really make the team different from just another Goblin variant ... that change was made ... it made it through playtesting in the Vault as it fit JJ's bring back more 2nd edition flavour request as well. The community pushed this team pretty much from there.

That's the story as I recall it from start to finish on the 3 new teams that we now have.

Galak/Tom

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:35 pm

I recall quite a few Chaos Pact teams before, with Norse linemen and three big men

they were poorly constructed, but my feeling was that the concept, if not the implementation was pretty popular.

In this case, I was probably biased given our local group. One of my best friends collected the complete Chaos All-Star team (to the degree that was possible) in the early 90s or late 80s, and we have always been huge fans. I was personally very disappointed when the Chaos team as it currently exists became the basis for the Chaos All-Stars... It's like replacing a fully pimped out F1 car with a Ford Focus... it is functional, but it's not even close to the same thing!

By the way- I like Plasmoid's new roster. It's a shame that wasn't around earlier... although I suspect the inclusion of the new Vault skills would have made that impossible

SillySod · Post by **SillySod** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:06 pm

I think a new team needs at least two out of three things - fluff, balance, and its own playstyle.

Bretonians are on shaky ground fluff-wise. You can create a fairly convincing Bretonian theme from the current human roster and the explanation for bretonians playing is not wonderful. I'd guess the current roster propositions are balanced and that tends to be the easiest part to fix anyway. Unfortunately I dont think I've seen a poposed roster which is terribly interesting or very different from current rosters.

If the proposal came with a decent and interesting roster then I'd be in favour of adding them. Until then I'm not. Well, unless the fluff magically becomes more convincing

kk · Post by kk » Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:21 pm

Thanks for the replies! These descriptions help me to understand more the process how teams are created. I'm definitely in a camp that the more teams there are the better (as long as those are balanced and fun to play with) and I think all these new teams do well (speaking about Underworld, Chaos pact and Slann in here).

I in fact did read the whole Bretonnian Yes/No discussion there was. Based on that and the descriptions above show that at the Bretonnian team just wasn't "ready" when it had the chance to "qualify" and it didn't help the cause that JJ did change his mind about the team.

So it seems that right now it is too late for Bretonnians. It is a pity, but if there will be these semi-official teams after the release of LRB6 Bretonnians have probably a good chance making it.

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:13 pm

Heh, I spotted a mistake in Galaks write-up. I think I'll keep it to myself though

Maybe Joemanji can spot it too.

Anyway - Jural, I'm glad you like the new team. I think it's a heck of a lot smoother than the one voted on and shown to JJ back in the day. I can say that unabashedly, because the latest version was a colaborative effort, and not just my own work.
Too bad it's too late now.

And Galak is indeed correct, the Bret roster has previously been too unstable. To a large extent that's my fault - I tried to design it online, hoping to find a version that would make everyone happy. But that just can't be done. The new version has benefitted tremendously from this, dealing (elegantly, IMO) with a shitload of the critique directed at previous rosters. But it all just took too long.
Also - and this may be me being paranoid - but a few people, (who shall remain nameless, in case I'm wrong) also sent me on a wild goose chase with random crazy suggestions, which I, being sucker, tried my best to incorporate or deal with. These posters have later claimed that nothing would make them like any Bretonnian team, making me wonder what their suggestions and critique was all about. Hence the paranoia.
Oh well. Such is life.

Anyway, Kk, if you like them or know someone who do - just houserule them in

You definately won't be alone.
Cheers
Martin

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:21 pm

plasmoid wrote:Heh, I spotted a mistake in Galaks write-up. I think I'll keep it to myself though
Maybe Joemanji can spot it too.

I thought I suggested and pushed for Underworld having M access on normal rolls.

Otherwise, didn't spot anything on first glance.

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:35 pm

Hi SillySod,

I think a new team needs at least two out of three things - fluff, balance, and its own playstyle.

I think the roster has all those 3 things. And while you may not like the fluff, for whatever reason, I've had good feedback from Bretonnian fans (WFB, I presume) who wanted to cross over into BB. Seems that despite the "you can just play humans" line, it wasn't the same thing.

Bretonians are on shaky ground fluff-wise. You can create a fairly convincing Bretonian theme from the current human roster and the explanation for bretonians playing is not wonderful.

Well, it's only convincing if you want them to be non-unique. And I don't really see while they need an explanation - everybody plays BB

.

But - I'll explain one thing about the fluff:
The original versions were largely based on the fluff in the army list. It was felt by some, that the team was too army-like and/or too warhammer-world like - and BB was moving away from that.
So, we want the other way: Went with a more general fluff, including some from the Bretonnian Roleplay (WFRP) sourcebook. As such, the team is now based on the heavily feudal and dark background, with an arrogant and reckless aristocracy, waited on hand and foot by yeomen and supported by worthless peasant levy. It's how their society works, and it is reflected in their BB teams.

So now, when someone states that it's not enough like the army fluff - I say what I've been told myself 100 times: The BB world is not the warhammer world.

Edit: In case it isn't obvious, this rant was triggerede by Spubbbba saying that:

Another difficulty is having it represent Brettonia and it's differences from the rest of the warhammer world with the main thing that makes them stand out is riding horse which you can't do on the BB pitch.

In short, "riding horses" is not, IMO, a satisfactory description of what Bretonnia is. Fluffwize.

I'd guess the current roster propositions are balanced and that tends to be the easiest part to fix anyway. Unfortunately I dont think I've seen a poposed roster which is terribly interesting or very different from current rosters.

I'm glad that you think they're balanced

Too bad you don't find them interesting too

Feedback from the playtesters is that it is interesting to play. And no matter how it looks (to you) on paper it feels "Bretonnian" - and doesn't duplicate another team's playing style - even if it isn't as unique as the slann.

IMO, saying that Bretonnians is "just another running team" is like saying that Chaos Pact is "just another bashy team". Seeing it like that means tha tthere are really only 4 different teams - but the teams do play differently within their category.

But I'm ranting

Bottom line:
The team has been designed towards a niche:
It's a running/bashing team, which does not have the staying power to consistently emplay the classic 2-1 grind.
In other words, it's a fun running team

Both to play, and to play against.
As sideline (which is fluffy, but not unique) it is a team of glory huggers, where everone is really just there to make your 4 stars look even better.

It caters to Bret-lovers, who want to play them in BB.
It caters to leagues that need a nudge to try out the new skills.
And it caters to these poor necro coaches who miss the catch werewolves

Cheers
Martin

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:38 pm

Joemanji wrote:
plasmoid wrote:Heh, I spotted a mistake in Galaks write-up. I think I'll keep it to myself though
Maybe Joemanji can spot it too.
I thought I suggested and pushed for Underworld having M access on normal rolls. Otherwise, didn't spot anything on first glance.

I really try to not take credit where not deserved. This is long enough ago I don't recall it.

If plasmoid agrees about this I will immediately change my post. Sorry Joe.

Tom

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:46 pm

Oh its no problem. Don't worry about it.

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:49 pm

Exactly Joe.
You and someone else, if I remember correctly.
It want into playtest in MBBL without the M-access, but they struggled, and your suggestion made all the difference

kk · Post by kk » Fri Sep 18, 2009 8:55 am

plasmoid wrote: Anyway, Kk, if you like them or know someone who do - just houserule them in
You definately won't be alone.

Yeah I know that's a viable option. Still the point I was making is that I like that nowadays Blood Bowl doesn't have those tons of different house rules in every league like it used to be. So basicly everyone uses the same rules which is nice. That's why I hope that good ideas like teams and such are given some official status.

rodders · Post by **rodders** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:08 am

From my distant experience of brettonians in WFB the fluff is simple,

They're too busy chasing the Grail to lower themselve to play BB

Digger Goreman · Post by **Digger Goreman** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:05 am

WHY WON'T YOU JUST DIE?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Brettonians

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:14 am

kk wrote:That's why I hope that good ideas like teams and such are given some official status.

And you've been told more than once, including by a member of the BBRC, that IT ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN!!!

Live with it - join Plasmoid in his Berettonian corner, or you can join me and others in the general "I want this, that or the other race" corner, but continually beating the same dead horse isn't going to make it come true.

Brettonians are not going to be added to BB - FULL STOP