Some thoughts on Ogres

[Pipey]

I’ve played 5 LRB6 league matches with ogres in a low-powered league and am finding it tough going. The other teams in the league are Human, Chaos, Underworld, Goblin, Vampire.

Initial thoughts – ogres are a team of extremes, of great strengths and great weaknesses but where the cons heavily outweigh the pros.

Strengths
*Supreme muscle and damage potential (up to 6 x St5/Mighty Blow is the single greatest advantage. Less mobile teams can easily get caught up taking lots of 2 and 3 dice MB hits)
*Great mobility of snotlings over a short distance

Weaknesses
*Snotlings are ridiculously, even hilariously, easy to hurt (this seems to be the most frequent game-loser)
*Snotlings are titchy so can’t tackle, which makes protecting the ball difficult
*The team overall is very slow – it’s very difficult to make a quick break away without a risky TTM, and so easy to be given the runaround on defence by most teams

My overwhelming feeling is that if you don’t win the numbers race, you’re screwed i.e. if you can’t hurt the opposition quicker than they can hurt your AV5 Snots then it’s going to be hard work.

All it takes is a few St3 players with block and the snots become very vulnerable indeed. Block plus tackle or MB is even worse.

On the plus side, I have found Ogres to be very effective when the ball goes loose. Snotlings cannot be pushed into the ball for a speculative scatter because of sidestep, and ogres are generally very tough to shift.

Skills-wise, you almost wonder whether snotlings have all the skills they need anyway (sidestep, dodge) and aren’t worth doubling their TV just for sure feet or sneaky git or diving tackle. I’ve had two snotlings with DT, who both died without using it once. For Ogres I’ve found guard handy as a starting skill to help create more three dice blocks and maximise the bullying. Break tackle seems the next best option – increases mobility and opens up the option of dodging into tackle zones to hit the ball carrier, especially if present en masse. If I ever get a double, block would seem the most obvious choice for the ogres.


So to maximise the effectiveness of Ogres it looks to me as though the basic tactics are pretty simple:
*Get in their face with the big men by putting as many of the opposition in TZs as possible (especially the dangerous block/tackle/MB players)
*Keep the Snots out of trouble and TZ. Should I be trying to hide my snotlings to prevent them from being blitzed?


Also:
*I’ve generally been trying to run the ball with Ogres as it seems too easy to dodge in and knock down the Snots.
*Widespread fouling seems pretty foolish as Ogres are too valuable and snotlings need to be preserved.


Ogre coaches, am I along the right lines here? Is there anything I’m doing wrong, or should be doing that I’m not?

[Ironjaw]

I think ogres are hilariously underpowered.

Would it be that great a boost to give the ogres general access?

Ogres As it stands though Pip, I'd use the break tackle Ogre as the ball carrier and hope he doesn't Boner. If I doubled I'd take sure hands.

Snots/JimjimmaniesLike you said though, unless you get a double on the snotling skill up then I would ditch them and just buy another. A snotling with sure feet is not worth 40k of anyones money.

I'd definately ball carry with an Ogre though, it's almost impossible to cage with them as Ogres can boner at any time, and snotlings are titchy, so if you've got your ball carrying Snot in the middle of the cage it's not going to get the endzone with at least 1 pop at it (most likely with 3 dice)

[Aliboon]

I'm not spealing from any position of knowledge here, but you are right about running the ball with Ogres. The snots are just too weak to hold the ball and given a couple of failed boneheads and the snots inability to exert TZs, you won't have a cage that will stop anyone dodging in, so they will lose it. One of the easiest wins I had was against a Ogre coach who ran the ball with his snots.

I would say that DT snots probably are worth doubling their value as at least then their TZs mean something and can disrupt your opos plans/make him turn over.

Don't really see a problem with fouling with the snots, they are just as good at fouling and assisting as any other player and at 20k if you manage to take any other player off the field it will have been worth it!

[Pipey]

I'd use the break tackle Ogre as the ball carrier and hope he doesn't Boner. If I doubled I'd take sure hands.

I now have two break tacklers, one with guard too. I'll be running the ball with one of these two. I'd give the one with break tackle dodge if he gets a double. Otherwise doubles have got to be block.

Aliboon - I see where you're going with Diving Tackle, but don't forget you have to dodge out of a DT tackle zone to get the -2, so you'd need a lot of DT snotlings around the ball to force a tricky dodge. I've found it useless so far...

Maybe when I've got a bigger roster (the full 16), I'll think about a few surgical fouls. At present I'm saving for my 6th ogre and I've often only got 1 or 2 (often less) snots left at the end of the match...

[Ironjaw]

Sure hands you pleb!

Saves your re roll for the inevitable Boner you'll need to use it for and prevents the strip ballers...

[Joemanji]

I would agree. If an Ogre already has BT, a double should be SH. The added bonus is that in protects against Strip Ball, which makes getting the ball off even a ST5 Ogre relatively easy.

[sann0638]

My thoughts on ogres:
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Break Tackle first skill on all the ogres except for a dedicated thrower (second skill on him), then choose from Juggernaut, Guard, Stand Firm, depending on the role of the various ogres. Don't start with too many as you will need rerolls. Take block on a double, consider ignoring a S increase it for it. AV increase is good, personally I would ignore an AG increase.

Diving Tackle first skill on all the snots except a couple of ball carriers who need Sprint, Sure Feet in that order. Leader on a double for a cheap reroll, then maybe block on the ball carrying snots. AG increases are gold dust, MA increases good, AV and strength useless.

Play a mobile game, hugging the sidelines to use sidestep. As soon as a snot with the ball gets within 7 (or 8 with sprint) squares at the beginning of a turn you are on 2+ all the way to score, so trust the dice.

If you get an AG increase then TTM becomes a reliable play (my MBBL team has an AG5 snot), until then it is a desperation one.
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There's a long thread here: viewtopic.php?t=26054&start=0
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Credentials-wise, I've played about 50 games on MBBL with ogres, plus lots of tabletop league and about 4 NAF tourneys. Not vast amounts of success, but it's always difficult to balance this against the fact that you're playing with ogres.

Elves are hardest to play against, because pretty much whatever you do they can dodge into the cage.

Mike

[plasmoid]

Hi Pippy,
I'll comment more later.
But first things first: I swear by DT on the snots.
Your ogres TZs tend to disappear, and titchy TZs are unreliable, so you need those snots to exert better TZs. It's probably on of the only skills worth taking on snots.

Don't use it to pin an opposing player unless it is actually crucial.
Stuff like that will get you killed.

But dodge away from opposing players, to establish all kinds of useful screens!

but don't forget you have to dodge out of a DT tackle zone to get the -2,

Just so we're clear, if you're standing next to a snot, and dodge into another square of the same snots TZ, you do get the -2. (A player has 8 tacklezones).

Cheers
Martin

[sann0638]

But first things first: I swear by DT on the snots.

And lots of my opponents have sworn at them...

[Pipey]

My point about DT was that if you have a cage like this (where is the ball carrier):

.
.. .
.


Even with two DTs ( )…

.
.. .
.


…it’s possible to dodge out of the tackle zone of a non DT player (either the front right or back left) on the above cage and still only need a basic dodge.

If the other non DT players are ogres, then it’s a -1 dodge. Still not that hard, when the reward is generally a 3 dice block.



My snots are getting injured and being rendered even worse faster than they can get any genuinely useful skills (and I haven't found DT useful enough to merit the 20k TV increase).

By the time a snotling gets Sprint and Surefeet he'll probably have - MA4 and AG2 (which defeats the object)...

[Joemanji]

Your diagrams make sense, but a cage like that in isolation is in trouble no matter who the players are. At least one of the corners should be too difficult to attack, which leaves you only protecting 3:

.
.. .
.

with one Ogre ( ).

Or even use boneheaded Ogres to block lanes:

. . . .
. . . .. .
.
. ..

Plus you should have a couple of Ogres or Snots spare to make it several dodges into the cage not just one. And even if they do get there, enough TZs so picking up the ball is difficult. Snot TZs still apply for that.

[Carnis]

I find the LRB5-6 ogres generally totally underpowered. They can mainly maim AV7 teams, and are in trouble against every1 else (even AV7 teams with dodge, like pro-elves & 'zons).

Skills: First ogre I would take piling on, many disagree as that puts a S5 player on the ground, but it isn't that big a deal with AV9 and thick skull.

Rest I'd prefer break tackle more than guard, but you should need 1-2 of both.

Doubles: BT player : Surehands, others always block.
Stats, MA is best, ST is 2nd best but then you must skip block.. AG some say it's gold but I find the boner & MA make more difference when ballcarrying so I'd always look for a surehands/BT instead of a +AG player for ballcarry missions.

Snots, it's up to personal preference, if they have DT they indeed have some role on the playing field, if not then all they can do is assist fouls and produce turnovers when they must dodge out of a Tackle player's TZ. Doubles my playstyle means its always dirtyplayer, then you least have a chance of getting some1 with you. I usually just ballcarry with one ogre, block with 5 and foul with 5 snotlings.

All in all, no matter what you pick you will always be the underdog. The ogres are insanely overpriced coming at 140k base cost with no real skill access, so all the useful skills are 30k+. They were never overpowered even with 120k basecost and goblin liners..

You should be looking at screening more than caging with ogres. A cageless ogre is fine, if the opponent cant tie him up with 2+ players.

Go something like

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--

-- --

[Pipey]

Of course you're right Joe, but I believe my post illustrates that on the specific subject of Diving Tackle on snotlings - it's only effective if pretty much every snotling has it, not just a couple.

And is it worth +100k for five DT snots? Not convinced...

I agree with much of what you say Carnis. Fortunately there are no dwarves or orcs or elves in the league, otherwise I'd epxect to be crushed. The league is Tier2/3 essentially with Humans and Chaos the toughest opposition.

My plan is to sack any snots that get skills or get injured, and focus on skilling my ogres. With any luck I'll get some block, maybe even a MA6/break tackle, dodge/break tackle or SH/break tackle ogre as a ball carrier. Hopefully I'll make the play offs and with 10 snots and 6 skilled ogres I reckon I have a chance.

[Mad Banker]

They were never overpowered even with 120k basecost and goblin liners..

I beg to disagree.
I played ogres a lot in LRB4 (having 12 ogres in the team in the end). And I won too much with them, even considering them horribly broken when you reach the point of having 11 ogres on the pitch (most having guard, break tackle, and quite a few having block or sure hands as you're bound to roll some doubles on so many ogres).
I even played without goblins at this point to handicap myself a bit but still... I stopped playing the team after a streak of 10 wins in a row (it was not fun at all anymore).
They had to nerf them, they are supposed to be as efficient as halflings or goblins after all...

[plasmoid]

I few more points:
Ogres are probably in the bottom 2, so you've got your work cut out for you.
Then again I remember reading that you're a very competent coach.

I've played ogres for 16 games in the MBBL.
I went 7 wins, 6 ties, 3 losses - so not too shabby.
Then again, I'm a fairly good coach too, so of all my MBBL teams, it's the one with the 2nd worst record (worst being khemri - but they're close).

You can see the team here:
http://www.midgardbb.com/MBBL/teamView.php?teamid=812

I don't think it has been a particularly lucky team. I had terrible, terrible winnings. And I lost the casualty race in pretty much every single game - but still managed to get several wins and ties by controlling the pitch with big monoliths and sidesteppers.

I started with 5 ogres, 7 snots and just 2 rerolls.
A better start might have had 4 ogres and more rerolls... Don't know.

But I bought an apothecary and then filled up with snots before I went for the 6th ogre and then the 3rd and 4th reroll. Admittedly, in retrospect, I should have taken a 3rd reroll before the ogre. But as mentioned before, I think the snots are an integral part of playing ogres.

Skill progression I did wrong. I overstocked on guard early on.
I think I should have taken (for the ogres): A guard (to get those 3 dice on the LOS, 2 dice suck up rerolls) then a break tackle ogre, then 2 piling on ogres, then a 2nd break tackle ogre.
Diving tackle for the snots - except for my runner who got sure feet, then catch.

Looking at my roster, I can see that my ogres have scored 9 times - while my ogres have scored just 6. So it definately is possible to run the ball on a snot if you have to.

That being said, I practically never do a classic X cage with the ogre team. Certainly not with snots on the corners. If a snot is carrying the ball then I use ogres close to the ball carrier - preferably with guard, in case someone makes it through to do the blitz. Ogres can either be spread out to force lots of dodges, or packed tightly to make the dodge in a straight 6.

But now that I've developed a break tackle, sure hands ogre - he runs the ball. Unless I'm in a hurry or need to make a tactical switch.

As for the use of diving tackle - I spread them out! Never pack them.
For example, a "cage" near the sideline:

.. .. ..
.. -- .. ..
.. -- .. .. --
.. .. ..

If I force many dodges through DT zones, then opponents will rarely try it.
Naturally, against dodgy elfy sides, the ball definately has to be on an ogre.

Cheers
Martin