Why are Human Catchers 70K?

[Joemanji]

MO 8 is the very reason of their price, a very good Mo for human

Yes but ... not to repeat myself but ... they are not worth that by the cost formula, other catchers are MA8 or higher and AG4 or ST3 or both for about the same price.

[Grogmir]

I believe the main point originally raised in that thread is the cost, i.e catchers are too expensive for what they are. Rather than "why aren't catchers better....

You are of course correct - to which the only answer is 'Thats the way the game was designed'

Now if we could get back to the much more pleasurable pastime of slagging the team off

[funnyfingers]

Formulas can't take everything into account. I always see catchers as a pain. Block, Dodge, and now Diving Catch with its +1 to catching an accurate pass.

Tought to compare them to Gutter Runners as the rest of the team is all AV7.

Yes they are only ST 2, but you can have 4 guard blitzers in the vicinity and possibly an Ogre.

Elves don't have any guard.

[Joemanji]

Okay, so you arguing that they are 70K for the sake of team balance. That if they were cheaper the Human team would be broken?

My response is: the team's win ratio is 45% ish, lower than just about all the serious races. So clearly Humans do not need the price of their Catchers to be artificially inflated.

[JJB]

sinA + sinB = 2 sin [(A+B)/2] x cos[(A-B)/2]

[funnyfingers]

They are 46% according to the latest stats posted by plasmoid. Just saying that as it is 25% closer to the 50% mark. And who is to say it is not the fault of the teams that are higher up on the charts. I just always see people wanting more more more and power power power. How about weaker?

Code: Select all

 TEAM
 Grand_Total %
 LRB5% 
Necro
 274½/477 57.55 44.84 
Elf
 164/286 57.34 54.19 
Wood Elf
 251½/445 56.52 60.82 
Undead
 244½/433 56.47 58.46 
Skaven
 365½/650 56.23 49.72 
Dwarf
 374/666 56.16 59.59 
CDwarf
 264½/490 53.98 50.57 
Dark Elf
 408½/764 53.47 49.83 
Norse
 249½/468 53.31 52.21 
Lizardman
 218½/411 53.16 51.46 
Chaos
 376/723 52.01 47.24 
High Elf
 235/458 51.31 49.05

[Jural]

I think the real answer is that if you consider the original rosters (Skaven, Dark Elf, High Elf, Dwarf, Human, Orc, Goblin, Halfling, Chaos, as I recall) the human catcher really is a 70k piece! Remember, there were no trolls, ogres, rat ogres, etc (as I recall, again) or mummies. Movement 8 alone and agility access were more important, or at least it felt that way.

It's an interesting argument. But then the players I compared them to in price (GR and HE catcher) were both created at the same time. So I don't see how it holds much water.

Actually, that's not my point. When the teams were created, the human side was a stronger side, and the catcher a big part of that. 10k one way or the other is a good way to balance out a side, and the humans were cost more than their orc counterparts by about 10k to compensate for a perceived change in value.

Comparing players with different statlines is also problematic. if you are arguing over 10k. Pieces are and should be adjusted by 10k up or down to compensate for the team's performance overall. For example, the skink at 60k seems to be about equal to a human catcher, except the catcher gets catch for 10k. Compared to a goblin, the catcher gets +2MA, Catch, and loses stunty for 30k. So by those comparisons, they are pretty dead on.

[Jural]

They are perfect catchers, with both Catch and Dodge and MA 8. They will almost never burn a team re-roll. There is value in being so good out of the box.

Is being focused on one aspect of the game enough to warrant a 10k increase? Probably not, and only because that aspect of the game is not crititcal in Blood Bowl. Passing is no longer a critical thing, and can be engineered to only occur in dire situations or situations of preference.

But my recollection is that passing was much more prevalant when Blood Bowl was first introduced in this edition. So of course the catcher was better.

I must also say that 60k just seems too little for this piece. I can much more easily see an 80k blitzer than a 60k catcher.

[Joemanji]

Stunties are obviously not a similar player type to the general field of Catchers, which is why I didn't include them.

You said that at the time it was created, the Human Catcher was a 70K piece. This implies that it isn't now. And the HE Catcher was created at exactly the same time and is so, so clearly better value. +1ST and +1AG for the loss of normally accessible skill and 10K more. Same with GRs.

Yes I understand you can make stats tell any story. But for the last 15 years all I've heard is "Human Catchers are rubbish, don't take them". Apparently everyone has changed their mind all of a sudden.

They are perfect catchers, with both Catch and Dodge and MA 8. They will almost never burn a team re-roll. There is value in being so good out of the box.

Really? So ST2 and AG3 are perfect?! So what does that make a Pro Elf catcher? God? They waste a team re-roll less than a rookie GR or HE sure, but they also fail more because of AG3, even with a free re-roll skill. And with only one skill the other guys can compensate for that skill re-roll and then some.

Catch is an overrated skill. If you play right, you should never need it. The player who picks up the ball will score the TD. Sure it gives options, and on many drives you will have to use it. But only once, and only on one player. And only if they roll a 1 or 2. A GR will potentially dodge, what, once a turn on average? More?

[Joemanji]

Put it this way. We play a game. You take the Human roster as it stands. I'll take it with either GRs or HE catchers instead of the Human equivalent. Who is happier?

[Grumbledook]

dark elf and high elf throwers used to be identical and the dark elf one cost 10k more

it isn't as clear cut costing players like that

humans are a good team but they are hard to use, I really don't get why people suggest them for newbies to try out as well

I think the catchers are really handy personally but they can be a liability

was there not already quite a few threads on the human team in the house rules section?

[Smeborg]

Personally, I find the Human Catchers outsdandingly good value. Especially in 6th Ed., with Diving Catch. I would say they are the defining player-type of the team.

[mattgslater]

HE Catcher _ 8 3 4 7 Catch, Block, Dodge, Side Step, Sure Feet. Yes please! He gets +1 ST and +1AG (but lose pass block - oh no) for a 10K increase.

20k for the record, but you're absolutely right.

PE Catcher 8 3 4 7 Catch, Nerves, Block, Dodge, Pass Block, Side Step! 30k increase, but game over, baby! TZ and a 5/9 to Int.

[plasmoid]

This again?
Looks like a House Rules thread to me.

Maybe Catch is intended to be a 20K skill on an AG3 piece.

Maybe humans aren't that bad. It is commonly accepted that orc stats are pulled down by newbies, because they're in the box. Perhaps it's the same with humans.

Cheers
Martin

[Frozen Yakman]

Just giving Catchers P access on a normal upgrade would probably be enough to balance them without changing their team roll. Guaranteed access to Nerves of Steel and Dump-off is very attractive.