Norse Lineman skill?

[GreedySmurf]

Now your D-ends are 80k and have to be protected. You want a guard guy against bash, and to keep him off the nose, but the thing that makes these guys vulnerable is that anybody can kill them. A Guard on the nose and AV8 on the ends really diminishes that against ST3 teams. Bash is different, but it's not like you don't want those players against heavy teams... you just want to use them in the backfield.

Against Str 3 teams, I admit yes I deviate from the three lineys. If I can outmuscle my opponents, My Troll and Ulf's plus other helpers go on the LoS to give me a virtually impenetrable line in the middle of the pitch and then I have my Bersekers as the Frenzy widezone threats.

Against most bash teams though, I figure no matter who I've got on the line they're going to be able to get 2 dice blocks on your LoS no matter what, so why risk someone valuable up there. Use the cheap and cheerful lineys instead. If I manage to skill a liney up past the first skill Fend, he comes off the line after that (unless he's been mangled by SI's - then I leave him there).

[mattgslater]

The dilemma, as I see it:

1) Always put up your best 11, give or take a specialist.

2) Don't put high-investment players on the line unless they can change the math considerably without creating a vacuum (this is why I don't like Ulfs on the D-line, even in exotic 5-2 or 4-3 defenses; too easy to box out, too hard to replace in the backfield).

Those two principles create a lot of conflict on positional-heavy teams with ST3 lines.

If you run 5 linemen on defense, and have 2 with +AV and one with +ST, then when you get a kicker you have to push the two +AV guys up to the line most of the time, where they're almost guaranteed to get hurt. (AV8? Please!) Are you really going to bench two players with stat increases on defense?

For now, you don't have to worry, as you don't have many positionals, but as this team develops and improves and as guys get replaced... I guess once they get Fend they'll be a good investment on the LOS. By the way, I think it's a very good idea to start a lot of linos on this team, like the original poster did. Guys die, and if you hire positionals to replace them as they do, you'll get better and better. But if you take all the positionals right away, you find yourself unable to field enough Linos to get them Fend off of d-scores in a big win: instead, they'll be forced to man the d-line forever they'll be living for MVPs. I'm having this problem this season: a game and a half, six scores, and all six are with Catchers. Not exactly spreading it around (though I did comp with an MVP lino).

[Carnis]

Err. Where would you field the +AV if NOT on the line? The whole point of taking +AV is to get players on the line who are slightly overpriced compared to human linemen, but fare as well as they do. This diminishes the amount of punishment and prolongs your team halflife. The only situation where you would avoid this is when facing claw or at the end of a half. This to my experience is rare, and often comes without mb (as it's expensive to get a CW up to block, guard, mb, claw and CDBs have to take the claw on doubles so they often come with guard/claw).

I'll also say I like the norse liners without +Stats. I would only consider +AG as a ballcarry, if I hadn't got a developed thrower (with surehands/pass/accurate) or a developed runner (with dodge,sidestep,surehands). I would never pick +MA, that's to me the definition of inefficient. The norse liners spend about half their life in the CAS/KO box. The norse CAN be a positional heavy team. But often it is not.

My 'theory' on norse (have played about 30 games vs semi-experienced coaches lately only lost 2 games in 3 seasons):

Play 3 RRs, 1 apoth, consider 1 Cheer/assistant coach, but they really are not necessary.
Take the Troll 140k
Take the Ulfs 220k
Take the Zerks 180k
Pick a ballcarry (Runner, Thrower or a liner with +AG) 70-90k
Consider 0-2 runners 0-180k
Take 6-8 liners to bring you up to 14. 300-400k

This is in total without skills anything between 1240-1360k, and you are fielding the 5 +S access players and UP TO 6 liners each half. This is important, by making your liners part of your best 11 you stay LEAN and get a long useful bench. This means you are MOST of the time getting inducements, while not being an underdog as long as you can keep the team lean. Your #1 & #2 inducements are bribe & wizard, against real killers take a 2nd apoth&babes. Wizard is strongest against basher teams, bribe is strongest against squishy teams.

Linos:
The linemen are 30k hobgoblins, with the best skill taken (Block). This is why the best skill to a norse lineman is Dirty player (JUST like hobgoblins!). At 70k he's great value, you'll be fielding a 14+ team anyway due to your AV7, may as well take some with you.

+AG will take his best ability away (long bench/TV efficiency), but this will give you a fantastic ballcarrier. IF you don't have a great one, and the liner hasnt taken other skills that conflict with ballcarrying, go for it. +ST is always a no brainer, even on a AV7 piece. +AV will make him a LOS-fodder, not as good as humans go but 10k here and there is no biggie and you get better linemen and positionals than the puny humans do anyway.

Skills: 1 DP, 1Tackle (consider sacking later, when zerks get up to tackle), 1-2 Fend, 2nd DP (1 each half), kick eventually. Doubles: Always guard. Stats: STR/AV, consider AG. But remember AG takes away your biggest strength, efficiency. Kick is perfect on a norse liner, as you don't have to skip anything to take it, I just find it's harder for the norse team to capitalize on an accurate kick due to their MA6 and low AG, so I do not prioritize it.

Throwers:
Many people skip the throwers (because, they start out bad and not many are willing to play passing plays with AG3). I like em, cause against slow basher teams even an inaccurate pass is enough usually for a score, if it's done in the right direction. Norse can live with low RRs I usually play 3, so a semi-reliable (he may die) 4th RR from the leader doesn't hurt and makes the thrower more TV efficient. Skills: Go Sure hands, Leader, Accurate. 4th skill is preference related, could be fend, kor, etc. Stats: All are good, skip AV for MA, as this is your ballcarry. Don't ever take a 2nd thrower, liners are simply better.

Runners:
Others skip runners, cause they are really expensive. Compared to 2 linemen its 80k for +MA/dauntless and Agility access. Dodge is nice, but it's slightly mitigated if you only get 2 and at AG3. Sidestep is always nice, but it's really a 3rd/4th skill on an elf (After a combination of block, tackle, dodge, wrestle, fend), so why would it suddenly be so super-crucial for a norseman. I believe 1 runner-ballcarry with surehands/dodge is an optimal OPTION vs a thrower-ballcarry. I also like having 1 dauntless in the team, but it can be a runner or a lineman just as well. (Liner being more TV efficient, runner being faster). Another use for runners is the dodge/catch line, where they can give good opportunity scores when your normal run the ball in a cage play fails. The price for that is high though, not entirely sure it's worth having a player with MA/dodge/catch (130k) over a lineman and a reroll (110k).

Ulfs & Zerks:
They play the same role. Zerks are better at killing elves, and Ulfs are better at tanking, crowdpushing and killing big guys. Consider MB&piling on (especially zerks). Consider one wrestling ulf, as your team has all block so there's no room for wrestle elsewhere. Wilhelm Chaney is great value at 240k with Wrestle Frenzy, so why wouldn't you get a Wrestle&BT ulf too. Play aggressively on the center, and put both your ulfs in crowdpush positions to dictate your opponents play. Use the zerkers to kill stuff on the side of the pitch you decide to play the ball at.

Skills: It'll depend more on your league and your playstyle, but cant go wrong with mb&piling on on either the zerks or the troll, and block/guard on everyone else. I'd probably aim at more than 1 mb & piling on, as he WILL get knocked out/killed so you need a reserve on the pitch for that. Aggressively crowdpush, this will mitigate your own AV7 somewhat, but don't ever waste a reroll on it unless its almost guaranteed to work, or you're facing a turnover.

Troll:
He's a menace. But he's also a turnover machine, and a glasscannoon at AV8 with no thick skull or regen. Get block if you can, else MB, guard, stand firm consider Piling On but it's usually only worth it after you have a man-advantage and can afford letting a wild animal stay on the ground. Blitz every turn if facing AV9, but get the 3rd die on at least the first block. Tank 2 linemen facing Ag3, against elves position him to make dodges or passes (dist-presence!) harder and go for crowdpushes.

Playstyle: First find the spot where you want the ball at the end of the turn. Make sure that does not require dodging or unlikely blocks (like downing a blodge SS without tackle & frenzy). Take the 2die blocks, take a blitz with your killer. Move the ball, secure the ball. At the end of turn take all 1die blocks vs players who dont have block/wrestle. Then dodge out of the rest, consider blocking the wrestle players if they are not in crucial positions. If you fail a block or a dodge, don't burn a RR unless this leaves more than 2-3 players in grave danger. Never ever mark players with your linemen, for more than 1-3 turns, and only if this ensures a score or gets you a high chance of turning the ball over, OR you have "won" the bashfest & are really tieing him down and not getting hit doing it. The most important:

Do NOT stand your players up at the start of turn (like you would with zombies), if their only mission after that is to get hit the next turn. Finally, the apothecary is for your positionals. Only at the last 4 turns of the game can you consider using it on a rookie, or a skilled lineman or a non-crucial positional..

[elhion]

Carnis that was excellent! Finally a complete Norse guide!

Thank you mate!!!

[Grumbledook]

Nice write up though I do wonder about the not standing your players up at the start of the turn

surely they are worth taking lumps if it keeps dangerous players away from the ball and where you are driving to

you already stated having 14 players so can spare 3

[Carnis]

Nice write up though I do wonder about the not standing your players up at the start of the turn

surely they are worth taking lumps if it keeps dangerous players away from the ball and where you are driving to

you already stated having 14 players so can spare 3

Well I don't stand up my AV7 linemen just so they get killed. Against some teams and situations it can be worthwhile, but often it just leads to your opponent getting free shots at your team, for no investment of their own. I reckon if I played with 16 players I could stand them up for no reason, but even then it would often lead to opponents player advantage on each half.

With orcs/dwarves/zombies standing up is no biggie, as the chance to get KOd or more is very low (AV9: 7% after being knocked down, or 14% facing mighty blow, dwarves get even lower numbers). But a team of AV7's its better to either leave them on the ground (voluntary stun), or dodge out at the end of turn (positive risk: either you get a better position, or take the armor check, make sure the 66% chance for better position is worth the 33% chance of an armor check!).

Simply getting blocked cause you stood up as first action in your turn you're facing a very high chance of being KOd (17,3% vs no skill, 31,5% vs mighty blow, 58,4% vs mb&po). Whilst getting very little or no advantage in players/position. Against a bribe loaded DP coach you need to run with your prone players (at the end of turn), not stand up and get hit+Fouled.

I think there's really 2 things to BB. Positional advantage (you got the ball & the area of the pitch surrounding the ball in control). Player advantage (you killed/KOd more than your opponent, and hence can now tie his team up and rub it in with MB&PO/DP fouls and more). Standing your players can get you a positional advantage, but it in my experience more often leads to opponents player advantage by significantly shortening your teams halflife on the pitch.

Also, its easier to get a positional advantage vs bashers, and its easier to get a player advantage vs squishies, so you should be gunning for different things depending on the opponent.

[Grumbledook]

But standing up can generate reroll useage as well, either from failed dodges away or a block

also your stats for KO's are valid but the player also needs to be knocked over as well and it can often be a fair trade off for better pitch position, especially if it is the difference between scoring or not

you also said you play the team really trim so getting 2x babes shouldn't be a problem to get those players back from the KO box either and you have 3 subs

your MB PO player builds should also have hopefully got you players up as well, which you also said if you have the player advantage you can push this home, which again would point to standing them up

also by standing up if they don't block you, you may get the chance to block them the next turn

[Carnis]

But standing up can generate reroll useage as well, either from failed dodges away or a block

also your stats for KO's are valid but the player also needs to be knocked over as well and it can often be a fair trade off for better pitch position, especially if it is the difference between scoring or not

you also said you play the team really trim so getting 2x babes shouldn't be a problem to get those players back from the KO box either and you have 3 subs

your MB PO player builds should also have hopefully got you players up as well, which you also said if you have the player advantage you can push this home, which again would point to standing them up

also by standing up if they don't block you, you may get the chance to block them the next turn

All true. Standing up at the start of turn CAN be worthwhile. I guess I should rephrase. Do not idly (ie, without thinking it over, or being seriously players up) stand up your AV7 players at the start of turn.

Anyway I originally stated almost the exact same thing: Do NOT stand your players up at the start of turn (like you would with zombies), if their only mission after that is to get hit the next turn.

[Grumbledook]

that makes more sense ;]

[Smeborg]

I will always stand up AV7 players, unless I intend to concede an easy TD to my opponent (which I do only rarely). A good example is my all Hobgoblin team. If a Hobgob stands up with the sole purpose of absorbing one or two blocks in the opponent's turn, he's doing his job. It's up to me to position my other Hobgobs to take advantage of his noble sacrifice.

[mattgslater]

I don't like not standing up. If you do like not standing up, yes, put the AV8 guys on the line: you paid for the leather, might as well show it. Otherwise, given the other players on the team, I'd use them as cornerbacks and try to shunt the action their way. Whoever ends up on the weakside will be a scoring threat, and they'll advance quickly into a second skill, like Fend.

[GreedySmurf]

Nice write up Carnis.

That's pretty close to how I play my Norse.