Terminology of spatial position

[mattgslater]

OK, I know I'm going to take a lot of flak for even the merest suggestion that this game needs a better lexicon, but such is life. As is, BB players are mostly differentiated from each other (visibly, at least) by position names (Runner, Catcher, Thrower) that often describe what the player does well, but fail to describe what he actually does on the field, particularly on defense. A terminology of relative defensive position would lay the groundwork for much more advanced concepts on both sides of the ball, particularly with regard to the early drive.

So here's the conventional BB symmetric defense, right?

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- - x -|- x - - - x -|- x - -
- x - -|x - - - - - x|- - x -

One could describe it in American Football terms as a 3-4 (or 3-4-4; same thing), with three in the front row and four "linebackers" in the second row, but that's not really helpful, as the "inside" and "outside" backers are so radically different in focus, utility and sphere of influence; the inside backers are really more like the "cornerbacks" in terms of responsibilities. Really, the problem with AmFB defensive terminology in BB is all about the linebackers, and that's where most of the confusion lies.

So, allow me to present my shot at Blood Bowl defensive positioning terminology. Most of it's AmFB based, with a little Assoc ball thrown in where AmFB terms fail.

The Line: The DL is both the best and worst for AmFB translation. The 3 positions on the standard BB DL correspond nicely to the three down linemen in a 3-4 D, so it's not hard to call them Line-Ends and Noseguard, or just Ends and Nose. I've got ideas about naming techniques for specific DL placement, but the conventional football numbering doesn't work for BB, as it's flatly impossible to key the defense off the offensive line, as is done in AmFB, and besides there are only seven places to go inside the WZ marks to AmFB's 15 practical DL techniques (0, plus 1-5 either way, plus 7 and 9 either way). But "End" and "Nose" translate very well.

Wide Zones: Here's where we need a little association ball. We have two wide positions: the guy who sits on the end and gets hit or rushes the ball, and the guy who sits inside his position and protects him. In AmFB, this is a Cornerback and an Outside Linebacker. I hate 3-letter terms, and I hate defensive positions that start with O: just leads to too much confusion. How about this? A Corner protects the wide zone, and a Winger protects him, or gets a jump on the pass rush. If "Corner" confuses people, we could call them "Wingers" and rename the Wingers to "Flankers" but I was really hoping to save that term for offense.

This leaves us the interior backfield. The "MLBs" or whatever, should they be Backers or Midfielders? I like "Backers" but I suspect it's 'cause I'm a 250-lb American, and my mind wants to go to my kind of football. But I'll use "Midfielders" for now, because "B" could mean Blocker or Blitzer (not that there's no overlap...). Either way, the guys they protect are Safeties, after the AmFB term, because that's what we've been calling them since I joined this site and nobody's ever complained about that one.

So here's our diagram now. Essentially, I just took the AmFB terms for the DL and DB, and renamed the LBs per Soccer, no?

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- - W -|- M - - - M -|- W - -
- C - -|S - - - - - S|- - C -

Now, for variants. Most variants don't really change the terminology much. for instance, here's the "3-5" defense with a spread-out DL.

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- - - -|- E - N - E -|- - - -
- - - -|- - - - - - -|- - - -
- - W -|M - - M - - M|- W - -
- C - -|- - - S - - -|- - C -

Or the "Inverted" defense, with Side Step on the Corners and one or more line positions, and with protected Wingers.

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- - - -|- - E N E - -|- - - -
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- C - -|M - - - - - M|- - C -
- - W -|- S - - - S- |- W - -

Stacked Lines, with more than three men on the LOS, still presents a problem. I hate the term "Defensive Tackle" (not as bad as the "Offensive Tackle" who you hope never tackles anybody, but seriously, DTs do less tackling than any other defensive position... why is he called a tackle?), so a "stacked line" with more than 3 men needs a different term than the AmFB term can provide. Equally obviously, you can't call two or three interior guys "noses". Defensive Guard? That's a better term than DT anyway. But there's still got to be something better.

I'll reply with "techniques" on the DL next. Another item we'll have to come up with is a vocabulary of conventional D alignments, which will save a lot of space in team blogs and tactical posts that would otherwise be spent on conceptual rehash.

[Joemanji]

I don't hate it Matt. You might be wearing me down.

Only thing that doesn't sit quite right is "wingers" - in football (soccer) these guys are always the ones furthest out - i.e. nearest the touchline. In fact, it is pretty much their job to hug the sidelines... "winger" is not just a position on either side of midfield, its a description of how the player is expected to play. If they weren't going to hug the sidelines, they'd just be playing right/left midfield.

[mattgslater]

Flanker in lieu of Winger and Winger for Corner, maybe?

What do y'all like best, from outside in, on the WZ?

A: Winger, Flanker
B: Corner, Flanker
C: Corner, Winger

Also, as promised, my initial idea on DL technique. In AmFB, a "Zero Technique" player is the DL who lines up in front of the Center. A "One Technique" lines up in front of the "A Gap" between the Center and Guard, a 2 is opposite the Guard, 3 mans the "B Gap" between Guard and Tackle, 5 is outside the Tackle, 7 is outside the Tight End. Obviously, that's not going to work here; even though offensive LOS players fit neatly into AmFB terminology, there's no "between" for the odd techniques (that would be the line between squares) and the DL can't respond to the OL anyway except on a Perfect Defense result. But there is a center square on the DL, which in my mind wants to be called "ground zero" or just 0. So the LOS square closest to the hash-mark would be "3". Read left-to right, then, the LOS would be:

- - - -|3 2 1 0 1 2 3|- - - -

A symmetrical LOS would then be described as a 101, 202 or 303 line. An offset cluster on the left side would be a 321 or 210 line, while on the right side it would be a 012 or 123 line. An "Orklahoma" stacked line would be "21012" while a cluster on the left balanced out by a guy out of Multiblock range might be a 212 line. I guess 212 could describe either... but it's pretty rare, so you could say "a 212 right" or whatever.

Examples:

101
- - - -|- - x x x - -|- - - -

202
- - - -|- x - x - x -|- - - -

212 left
- - - -|- x x - - x -|- - - -

212 right
- - - -|- x - - x x -|- - - -

123
- - - -|- - - - x x x|- - - -

321
- - - -|x x x - - - -|- - - -

[voyagers_uk]

I am in favour of this.

Although I can understand your point on Tackles, i just think your attitude is another example of the lack of respect those in the trenches get from analysts....



Ends / Nose - no problem with those

I would go with LB across the linebackers after all for years we had BL for Blockers in Dwarf teams and B for Blitzers

C & S I again have no issue with and think they make sense.

[mattgslater]

Although I can understand your point on Tackles, i just think your attitude is another example of the lack of respect those in the trenches get from analysts....

You're mistaking me for the GM of my team. The #17 P.R. Machine is the best QB the Chargers have had in a generation... why can't we get a Center to keep him upright? I have nothing resembling a disrespectful attitude toward either kind of Tackle; I just think the term is inappropriate, and whoever came up with it did a real disservice to all but one of the most important guys on the field at any given time (the other one gets all the glory... but it doesn't change the fact that handling balls is for girls).

More I think about it, more I like "Flanker" and "Corner" for the two WZ positions. The Corner is more like an American Corner than like an Association Winger in application (counterparts, yes, identical, no), and Joe's right that the "OLB" isn't a Winger at all. I was hoping to use "Flanker" for offense, but I guess we still have "Receiver" open (no pun intended) for use. And "Winger" too!

So that leaves us with this as our default diagram.

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- - - -|- - - - - - -|- - - - 
- - F -|- M - - - M -|- F - - 
- C - -|S - - - - - S|- - C -

Better? This formation is so common, it needs a name, btw. How about the "Ziggurat" for its trapezoidal shape and its scheme that slopes inward towards the LOS. That would make the "inverted" defense the "Inverted Ziggurat" (anyone remember The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun?). The term could just apply to the backfield, in which case the above would properly be a "101 Ziggurat" as opposed to a "202 Ziggurat":

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- - F -|- M - - - M -|- F - - 
- C - -|S - - - - - S|- - C -

[Darkson]

Not being the biggest AmF fan in the world, these makes even less sense to me than one of Toby's ideas.
I'm happy with Blitzer, Runner, et al.

[mattgslater]

They're fundamentally different concepts. A position (Thrower, Blitzer, Catcher) is a description of what a guy does, particularly (but not exclusively) on offense. A placement (thanks, Simon!) is a description of where a guy sets up. A Thrower, for instance, could be a Safety or a Flanker (or a reserve) on defense, while a Blitzer could be a Midfielder, a Safety, a Corner, a Flanker or even a Noseguard. Different Blitzers may develop into different placements: a Flanker or Noseguard would have use for Guard, while Dodge or Stand Firm would be a selection for a Midfielder or Corner, and a Safety might take Mighty Blow or Tackle.

[landrover]

No offence intended, so please read this one lightly.

The main difference in Amfb is thast the safeties are generally there to tackle the snot out of anyone daring enough to get into their backfield. If I set up a team in BB and put players back behind the first row of (free linemen?) then it's usually because they have some form of useful skill and I don't want them killed either on my opponent's offense or on a blitz on KO.

The real trouble starts because my ST2 catcher, my ST3 blitzer, or my ST5 ogre could all be defined as a safety. The roles that you are trying to define imho do not suit the BB arena as they are not relating to specific players, but where they are positioned on the pitch.

No matter where I put an ogre, (s)he's still an ogre.

[mattgslater]

No offence intended, so please read this one lightly.

No worries. You didn't say anything offensive.

The main difference in Amfb is thast the safeties are generally there to tackle the snot out of anyone daring enough to get into their backfield. If I set up a team in BB and put players back behind the first row of (free linemen?) then it's usually because they have some form of useful skill and I don't want them killed either on my opponent's offense or on a blitz on KO.

Understood. That's not as much of a difference as it looks at first, you know. Safeties frequently are the guys who aren't fast enough to play Corner or big enough to play LB: not always, but often. Or, when I was a kid, the least athletic small kid (I, being the least athletic big kid, was guard/SLB). This guy would stand behind everyone else and if the ball went his way he'd try to fall down so he didn't get hurt. If he landed in front of the RB (the other "team's" safety), sometimes he'd trip him or slow him down. I went to a teeny weeny school, and we played on gravel in street clothes, so it's kind of forgivable. But it was also a whole lot closer to BB than a college or pro football team is (especially the bit about fouling; we weren't big on the whole adult supervision thing back then).

The real trouble starts because my ST2 catcher, my ST3 blitzer, or my ST5 ogre could all be defined as a safety. The roles that you are trying to define imho do not suit the BB arena as they are not relating to specific players, but where they are positioned on the pitch.

No matter where I put an ogre, (s)he's still an ogre.

What do those guys do? They lay the smack inside (Blitzer), redirect the rush (Ogre), or cover receivers (all), and they do it from a deeper level so they can't immediately get neutralized by a fullback (well, not the Ogre...). They don't all do all of those, of course. They certainly don't all do it the same way. Every once in awhile you'll blitz (in the football sense) with any of these guys, but it's very situational. How is that not a safety?

[mattgslater]

So what do these placements end up doing in BB? I guess this is a start on where I'm coming from. Each player-on-team-at-placement comes with a set of responsibilities, no? The positions aren't arbitrary: a symmetrical defense has 11/2 positions, rounded up. Whatever we name the placements, here are some observations I think obvious.

Noses and Ends have to soak up the line blocks, so they should either be tough or cheap. Some teams' ends are built to hold with Block and Stand Firm, while others are just the cheapest players that can be found. If a team only has one Guard player, he's often the Nose, especially against ST3 fronts. Teams that can field four or more ST4 players and an AV9 Big Guy, like Orcs and Lizardmen, may field the Big Guy at Nose if the defensive formation is symmetrical, or at End if asymmetric. Noses like Guard, Wrestle, Block, Stand Firm, Dodge, and to a lesser extent Jump Up, Side Step and Mighty Blow. Ends like the same skill, but Side Step more and Stand Firm less, plus Guard is less important than Block/Wrestle/Dodge for ends on some teams. Noses and Ends don't care much about AG or MA, assuming they have at least either MA4 or MA3 and Stand Firm.

Corners must be able to absorb the blitz, and will lose a square on pass rush in conventional wide zone formations. However, the corner on the side of the play gains an extra square in coverage, and the corner on the off-side is frequently left uncovered or zone-covered to prevent him from blitzing or to redirect him, or just neutralized through use of space. Side Step and Block are the ultimate corner skills, but Dodge, Stand Firm, Fend, Tackle, Diving Tackle, Wrestle, Catch and Leap are all valuable in one context or another. A decent MA is a big advantage, as the off-side corner will find himself out in space.

In the "Ziggurat", flankers aren't placed so as to allow a hole to be opened through a blitz. In other formations, a flanker may be more vulnerable, perhaps. Guard is king here, and hitting skills like Frenzy and Mighty Blow are also good (particularly Frenzy). Flankers also like everything corners like, except that Side Step or Stand Firm is mostly just an answer to Frenzy rather than a butt-saver. Flankers are sometimes simply whoever is left over after accounting for the other positions, but MA and ST are important.

Midfielders usually must also be able to absorb a blitz, though sometimes a midfielder will play a flanker-like role protecting a corner or another midfielder. Center-Fielders behind the 0 or 1 square sometimes play this role, and this is also the role of midfielders in an inverted formation, as the spaces behind the midfielder are covered by the safety and the "flanker" (really a nickel safety).

In the "Ziggurat," however, the onus usually falls on the midfielder to take the blitz action on inside runs. This makes the Block skill absolutely critical to the position. The standard hit-absorbing skills, like Dodge, Fend, Stand Firm and Side Step are generally good, as are good ST and AV. AG is valuable too, but midfielders get less advantage out of speed than flankers, corners or safeties, as they tend to get either blitzed or man-marked.

The safety is usually protected from blitzes, and when not protected usually there is at least some support to make it hard to assist against him. Some safeties run amok and kill things with Block, Mighty Blow, Frenzy and Piling On. Others play coverage with Tackle, Diving Tackle and Side Step. Still others use Dodge, Wrestle or Leap to provide pressure on the passer or to crack the cage. Safeties can be just about any player, and it's not hard to vary a team's strategy significantly by playing with the safety selection if the team has a full healthy complement. Safeties are often the first players to go when a team ends up down men, and are frequently (certainly not always) the most fragile players.

[Jural]

You're mistaking me for the GM of my team. The #17 P.R. Machine is the best QB the Chargers have had in a generation... why can't we get a Center to keep him upright?

Drew Brees begs to differ.

I like what you are doing in this thread though

[mattgslater]

I'm not at all convinced that Drew Brees is a better QB than Phil Rivers. Brees plus Goodwin is better than Rivers plus Mooch, fine. But Rivers has a fair pass defense and a bad run defense, so he has major TOP problems on top of his protection problems. And he has Mike Scifres punting long fields for the opposition, compounding the TOP issue. And yet he still averages 300 yards a game.

Brees had 5 seasons here in the Land the Weather Table Forgot: he was drafted in '01, didn't become the full time starter until '03 and was awful for a year, so we drafted his replacement. Then he got good, but we had our new guy already so they* had to let him go after his first contract. Ended up getting Rivers, Merriman, Roman Oben, Nate Kaeding (second-most accurate kicker of all time after Vanderjagt), and a washout ILB named Anthony Waters (funny enough, the Saints picked him up) for a first and second, so we still love Brees out here.

No worries: if they can figure out how to keep Rivers from getting hurt without an OL he'll be better in 3 years than Brees is now. If I had to rate all Chargers QBs as Chargers, I'd put Brees in at #5, after Fouts, Rivers, Hadl and Humphries. Not that I remember Hadl... but I sure remember the Epic In Miami (and I still get flashbacks to the Freezerbowl every time the Bolts play Cincy), so that makes Brees #4 in my lifetime. But Hadl was great, the old folks assure me. Brees is more like a mini-Jack Kemp: great (or close) and here, but not great here.

* Notice change of subject. We had our new guy already, so they had to let him go. That's not bad English. It's just a moment in linguistic space where the concept of subject gets fuzzy. He's "our" (fans) guy, and "their" (Chargers) guy, but our+their = our. They make the personnel decisions, but they are included in we, along with us. We don't make any personnel decisions. Just sayin'.

[stick_with_poo_on_the_end]

What is the obsession with shoe horning American football terminology in? I don’t see cricket fans referring to their Werewolves as “slips” and their Ghouls as “silly mid Offs”, nor the rugby fans insisting there troll slayers are “hookers” or “Fly Half’s”

Does everything really have to have football and reference attached to it?

Maybe it’s just me, but I just see a dwarf runner as a dwarf runner, not a quarterback. And a blocker as a blocker not a tight end guard or whatever it is they are called.

[voyagers_uk]

I am not 100%, but I don't tthink that this is the purpose of this at all.

AmFo tactical descriptions of the roles played by placements on the pitch actually do transcrive well into Bloodbowl. Matt has that right and I completely agree.

The name of your piece doesn't really matter so much as what you use them for.

I will try (and probably fail) to illustrate this with an example.

My pro Elf Team "The Atlantis Falchions" had 4 Catchers on it. They were stars on offense, doing what they were supposed to do, catch run and score...

however I gave them Guard, Block and Tackle so that they could be my safety/corner positions on defense.

They were highly mobile players in my "Secondary" and put the hit where it was required.

This allowed my Blodge,Sidestep Blitzers to play the Ends and my ST4 Block Lino to play the Nose position.


it works well to think of role versus placement on defense.

[Ironjaw]

I could punch Jervis for using terms such as "endzones", "line of scrimmage" and "Linemen"

BLOOD BOWL IS NOT AMERICAN FOOTBALL

Why do people feel the need to change it? Are the names too hard for you to comprehend?

Err...what does a dwarf RUNNER do? Why its a tight safety reciever of course...
and dwarf BLOCKERS, what are their role? Well, centres, offensive safety covers or tail back kicker, Duh!

It's bollocks. For starters, it's an English game, based as losely on American shitball as Baseball is to Rounders.

I'm gonna start naming my players after netball positions.

"Goal Attack to block your flesh golem"

"Wing defence to pick up the ball"

That sounds less ridiculous than a game that needs 20 referees and video replays and 100 stoppages to play- no wonder they serve beer on the stands (yes Stands, not "bleachers") in America...